I'm talking about the picks he's given up for 4th liners and now he's downgrading one of the 2nd's we got for Bieksa and the season hasn't even started yet. Sure, it may only be a 10 spot difference but other GM's take notice of these things and in the future when a deal is close to being completed, they'll push for Benning to give them a little something extra as well. And none of us love Clendneing, but they gave up a decent prospect in Forlsing for him(he's ranked as CHI's #10 prospect, ironically the Clending was voted as the Canucks #10 prospect as well). So he had a least fringe value, just like the pick upgrade.

Say he wants Tinordi from MTL and offers Shinkaruk or Gaunce, Bergevin will undoubtedly push hard to get him to throw in another 5th rounder like last time or maybe ask him to downgrade the 3rd again to an even later 3rd or a 4th so suddenly the 2nd from Bieksa has evolved into a 4th or an even later 3rd.

It's just weird how Benning seems to be the one usually paying a little extra in most negotiations to get things done.
- Nucker101

I agree keep the picks.

I'm usually on your side of the fence , but I think Sutter is a good fit here.

Better than Wellwood , Santorelli , Bolduc Volpatti .

We are finally getting true bottom 6 players
- VANTEL

I agree if he is actually meant to be a bottom 6 player, if he is signed for 4.5-5 million for a couple of years I think it will be pretty clear Benning sees him as a top 6 player.

sutter is better defensively. do you really need numbers to tell you that?

seriously?
- RealityChecker

That would be nice, yes. Because there's tons of statistical proof that backs up how solid defensively a guy like Kesler was, even with Manny Malhotra before the eye incident.

I remember reading an article that actually showed that the Pens allow more goals on the PK when Sutter is on the ice. I'll try to dig it up.

Very well said but I don't think anyone is talking about guarantees but some of us are saying that those stats do a better job of predicting success than the traditional "eye test".

Will it always work ? no, but the top players and teams almost always are statistical darlings when looked at in a large enough sample size.
- belcherbd

yes, but when you take those stats and try to apply them on an individual basis, it is often times misleading.

as gofingsince correctly pointed out yesterday, hockey unlike baseball is not well suited for a lot of these advanced stats. the play is so chaotic that enumerating plays is almost entirely arbitrary.

i'm not saying that advanced stats are useless in hockey but i will say that a lot of people are overestimating their worth. as i said earlier, they are mostly used to support an already held opinion.

advanced stats are in their infancy within hockey and thus i think should be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree if he is actually meant to be a bottom 6 player, if he is signed for 4.5-5 million for a couple of years I think it will be pretty clear Benning sees him as a top 6 player.
- belcherbd

That's todays prices.

Remember we hated Manny being paid 2.5 per

I think he signs 4.2x 4

I'm usually on your side of the fence , but I think Sutter is a good fit here.

Better than Wellwood , Santorelli , Bolduc Volpatti .

We are finally getting true bottom 6 players
- VANTEL

I agree that he;s a nice bottom 6 player, but Benning might see him as more of a Kesler 2LC type of player which he isn't. I'm betting he's prepared to pay him that way at least. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he gets him signed for anything less than 4.5M per for 4-5 years.

That would be nice, yes. Because there's tons of statistical proof that backs up how solid defensively a guy like Kesler was, even with Manny Malhotra before the eye incident.

I remember reading an article that actually showed that the Pens allow more goals on the PK when Sutter is on the ice. I'll try to dig it up.
- Nucker101

lemme ask your opinion then: bonino vs sutter. who is the better defensive player?

i'm not asking for anything more than a one word/one name response. who is the better defensive player?

Face off %, defensive game and shows up for the playoffs.
- Marwood

FO% is marginal at best. Defensive game, I'd buy if Pit actually played him against other top lines every night but Crosby/Malkin played more minutes against other top lines than him. He does seem to be a good playoff performer which is nice, but not sure how that's going to help this team to be honest since just making the playoffs anytime soon seems like a long shot and if they do get in, I wouldn't expect them to last long.

Face off %, defensive game and shows up for the playoffs.
- Marwood

Sutter's FOW% in the playoffs for the last 3 years have been 50.6%, 55% and 50.8%

he clearly brings his level of play up for the post season.... always a good thing!

Upgrading our centre ice position. Sutter is still an upgrade on Bonino as sad as that is. Clendening will never be a full-time NHL'er and we didn't lose a draft pick... we just moved about 20 spots down.

I personally don't mind the move at all. When Benning overpays him I might have a problem then, but in terms of player for player I would rather have Sutter than Bonino. Bonino is very overrated by Vancouver fans because of his hot start last year. he had 7 goals in his first 14 games, but did pretty much nothing after that! 8 goals in 61 games!!!!
- Mungo

We did lose a draft pick though, or you can view it as we traded Bonino, Bieksa and a 5th round pick (Clendening) for Sutter and a 3rd. It's an overpayment no matter how you look at it IMO.

Sutter's FOW% in the playoffs for the last 3 years have been 50.6%, 55% and 50.8%

he clearly brings his level of play up for the post season.... always a good thing!
- Mungo

How many nights did we see Bonino 0-6 or 1-8 on the dot. That usually means 15 seconds of 45 chasing to get possession or a good scoring chance by the other team.

Hank needs to improve on that too

We did lose a draft pick though, or you can view it as we traded Bonino, Bieksa and a 5th round pick (Clendening) for Sutter and a 3rd. It's an overpayment no matter how you look at it IMO.
- LeftCoaster

But the Ducks second round pick will be 1 or 2 spots better than a third but it is still a decrease.

But the Ducks second round pick will be 1 or 2 spots better than a third but it is still a decrease.
- VANTEL

I don't think people are all that clear on the draft picks.

Benning confirmed that it is the better of either the Canucks or the Islanders 3rd round pick.

Even if Anh makes the final, either the Nucks or the the Islanders would have to be the worst in the league for it to be 1 or 2 spots.

My guess Anh is picking in the 55-60 range and the Nucks/Isles pick will be in the 70-75 range. That is a larger gap then people making it out to be.

I don't think people are all that clear on the draft picks.

Benning confirmed that it is the better of either the Canucks or the Islanders 3rd round pick.

Even if Anh makes the final, either the Nucks or the the Islanders would have to be the worst in the league for it to be 1 or 2 spots.

My guess Anh is picking in the 55-60 range and the Nucks/Isles pick will be in the 70-75 range. That is a larger gap then people making it out to be.
- belcherbd

Fire Benning.

How many nights did we see Bonino 0-6 or 1-8 on the dot. That usually means 15 seconds of 45 chasing to get possession or a good scoring chance by the other team.

Hank needs to improve on that too
- VANTEL

I know I have gone off on this before but FO% is a relatively useless stat.

Knowing that Player A won 50.86% of 945 draws

and

Player B won 48.74% of 867 draws

tells us what exactly?

That Player A won 481 draws and lost 464 draws (+17)
That Player B won 421 draws and lost 446 draws (-25)

So Player A came out positive in their draws over a season great.....were those extra wins in the offensive zone? defensive zone?

Did Player A get the benefit of doubt on winger wins, scramble wins, draws etc.

The skill of winning FO is really important but as of right now comparing 2 players fo% is an unreliable method of gauging that skill....IMO of course.

But the Ducks second round pick will be 1 or 2 spots better than a third but it is still a decrease.
- VANTEL

It's still a second round pick where you can rebuild the defensive core. For me the difference between Bonino and Sutter are not so significant that we needed to include the second round pick and the 5th round pick in the forms of Bieksa and Clendening.

Calling Sutter a "foundational piece" is just ridiculous....the whole league must just laugh at Benning. For all intents & purposes the guy is good at scouting and drafting....but he comes off as an idiot to me when he says stupid poop like that.

Most of the moves he's made are not of any blockbuster variety, all the guys are mediocre players except Kesler who had all the power in his court with a full NTC.

I really like his drafting and the notion that the team is gonna "develop" guys before they earn a spot. That's the ultimate key to any franchise who's had success....draft and develop.

I guess we'll see.

I don't think people are all that clear on the draft picks.

Benning confirmed that it is the better of either the Canucks or the Islanders 3rd round pick.

Even if Anh makes the final, either the Nucks or the the Islanders would have to be the worst in the league for it to be 1 or 2 spots.

My guess Anh is picking in the 55-60 range and the Nucks/Isles pick will be in the 70-75 range. That is a larger gap then people making it out to be.
- belcherbd

I see ducks with the best record next year and I see Buffalo and Canucks both finishing bottom 10

It's still a second round pick where you can rebuild the defensive core. For me the difference between Bonino and Sutter are not so significant that we needed to include the second round pick and the 5th round pick in the forms of Bieksa and Clendening.

Calling Sutter a "foundational piece" is just ridiculous....the whole league must just laugh at Benning. For all intents & purposes the guy is good at scouting and drafting....but he comes off as an idiot to me when he says stupid poop like that.

Most of the moves he's made are not of any blockbuster variety, all the guys are mediocre players except Kesler who had all the power in his court with a full NTC.

I really like his drafting and the notion that the team is gonna "develop" guys before they earn a spot. That's the ultimate key to any franchise who's had success....draft and develop.

I guess we'll see.
- LeftCoaster

Can't argue with this.

Don't really care who band-wagon fans cheer for.
- Marwood

You don't know anything about hockey.

Kesler, Bonino, Clendenning, Forsling, 2nd for Sutter, McCann, Sbisa and a 3rd. That's a lopsided trade if I've ever seen one.

Unless of course you are delusional and think McCann is the next Joe Sakic.

lemme ask your opinion then: bonino vs sutter. who is the better defensive player?

i'm not asking for anything more than a one word/one name response. who is the better defensive player?
- RealityChecker

One words answer: Sutter

Longer answer:
Okay, I haven't seen Sutter play enough other than his playoff games and random regular season games. I'm basing my opinion off of what the people who've seen him play almost every game are saying and some stats that are proven to be useful. So my short answer is Sutter is better defensively even though the evidence of that is a bit wonky. But overall I'd say they're about even, if there salaries were equal I'd probably still take Bonino by a bit since I feel like he actually makes his linemates a bit better and Sutter makes them worse as a center.

How many nights did we see Bonino 0-6 or 1-8 on the dot. That usually means 15 seconds of 45 chasing to get possession or a good scoring chance by the other team.

Hank needs to improve on that too
- VANTEL

Every center in the league who isn't elite at FO's has those nights.

You don't know anything about hockey.

Kesler, Bonino, Clendenning, Forsling, 2nd for Sutter, McCann, Sbisa and a 3rd. That's a lopsided trade if I've ever seen one.

Unless of course you are delusional and think McCann is the next Joe Sakic.
- Scooby_Doo

Dorsett is apart of that equation as well... didn't we swap 3rds with ANA and then flipped that to NYR for Dorsett?

I see ducks with the best record next year and I see Buffalo and Canucks both finishing bottom 10
- VANTEL

It is not Buffalo pick, it is the Islanders pick. Even if the Ducks have the best record they need to win the cup to get 30th (60th).

In that case Anh is picking 60 and Van or NYI would have to finish 20th in the league (possible but IMO unlikely) for them to be picking 10th(70th)

I think 10 spots is the best case scenario but it could easily be 15+.

Again whether this is negligible or not, I don't know but I wanted to clarify that it isn't 1-2 spots that some are making it out to be.

Dorsett is apart of that equation as well... didn't we swap 3rds with ANA and then flipped that to NYR for Dorsett?
- Mungo

It's a poop show whatever is going on. Brandon Sutter is not someone to build around, it's just crazy talk. Canucks gave up WAY too much for him, end of story.

Forsling and Clendenning could turn out to be great defensemen, we didn't need another 3rd line plug. Not to mention Benning always talking about drafting and he tosses in a 2nd round pick.

Every center in the league who isn't elite at FO's has those nights.
- Nucker101

We had those nights a lot