You think Glendening can make the move to defense and still put up 17 points? Also, isn't he on Detroit still?
- jmatchett383

He did put up 18 points last year.....I think he can make the switch...

If I am wrong it is lack of skill mixed with luck in small sample sizes. Consistency is either tied to effort or skill. Which are you saying?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

So when Crosby or Malkin go on a points drought, is it because of a lack of effort or skill?

Do you happen to remember who Sutter's wingers were during his mid-season doldrums?

So when Crosby or Malkin go on a points drought, is it because of a lack of effort or skill?

Do you happen to remember who Sutter's wingers were during his mid-season doldrums?
- hardnosed

Two ice hockey players.

No I have barely watched anything of significance on Bonino. Probably not much different than you or most other Pens fans. But I can understand basic math perfectly well and I know which player has been more productive in recent years and that is likely to produce better results.

BTW, we're all fans of the TEAM. I am a fan of 'Murica too. Doesn't mean we won't constructively criticize things if they obviously can be improved upon.
- jfkst1

I doubt you could find many hockey people who would argue that Bonino is better than Sutter.

Many here rooted against PBI (Pens best interest) last year by openly rooting against Sutter.

The Internet has created a new kind of fandom where being "right" is more important than your team winning or its players playing well. MAF would be the perfect example.

Unlike so many here, I'm a fan of the TEAM. I don't have an agenda. I'm not trying to "smart" my way to a part-time "consultant" job presenting actual hockey people with hockey Excel printouts for them to ignore.

Sutter is gone. Like I said yesterday, I wish him well and I think he'll flourish in Vancouver.

All I ever argued was that the guy was unnecessarily scapegoated, and that he was a great example of fancy stats failing to properly quantify a player.

I like to keep things in perspective, and calling one of my own players juvenile names is something I'm just not immature enough to do, whether it was F Sutter or Suckturd.

I am also man enough to admit when I'm wrong - I didn't believe he'd be traded this offseason and he was.

The same can not be said for other posters and especially regarding a writer on this site, such as last season's 4 months of thinly veiled MAF jabs and then radio silence on the issue.
- hardnosed

Don't get too high up on that horse. You're the one that constantly calls people out for not watching games because they have different opinions than you and constantly preach the eye test while bashing others visual observations as fictitious if they don't align with your own. I'm not a sensitive guy, but I'm gonna jab a bit if people jab me. I'm also not a poop head and will root for my players while their on my team and hope the score 50 goals regardless of how bad I think they are or how much I dislike their playing style, but excuse me if Sutter becomes one of my least favorite players in the league now that he's not in a Penguins sweater.

Two ice hockey players.
- jmatchett383

probably Canadian....

So when Crosby or Malkin go on a points drought, is it because of a lack of effort or skill?

Do you happen to remember who Sutter's wingers were during his mid-season doldrums?
- hardnosed

Apples and oranges, man, come on. Crosby and Malkin consistently put up points at even strength even when they go through a funk from time to time.

Yes, linemates matter. Of course you remember who Sid and Geno's wingers were during their worst funks? But one analytical aspect there is no excuse for is him making every single player he's played with worse.

probably Canadian....
- cap1681

Each guy definitely had at least 1 arm.

Each guy definitely had at least 1 arm.
- jmatchett383

And they probably were male.....

Don't get too high up on that horse. You're the one that constantly calls people out for not watching games because they have different opinions than you and constantly preach the eye test while bashing others visual observations as fictitious if they don't align with your own. I'm not a sensitive guy, but I'm gonna jab a bit if people jab me. I'm also not a poop head and will root for my players while their on my team and hope the score 50 goals regardless of how bad I think they are or how much I dislike their playing style, but excuse me if Sutter becomes one of my least favorite players in the league now that he's not in a Penguins sweater.
- Victoro311

Ah, the idea that all opinions are equal. I think I do a pretty good job of supporting my arguments.

And I don't know how long you've been around here, but I don't jab. I don't make things personal.

It's always the other way around - like in this thread, where instead of talking hockey, we've got jokes about me and Sutter and Adams getting drunk together, like my personal happiness is somehow tied to my view of my favorite hockey team.

I doubt you could find many hockey people who would argue that Bonino is better than Sutter.

Many here rooted against PBI (Pens best interest) last year by openly rooting against Sutter.
- hardnosed

I suspect you'll use a No True Scotsman to argue who the "hockey people" are. http://www.cbssports.com/...ntinues-bizarre-offseason
http://www.tsn.ca/statist...ns-improve-depth-1.337447
http://www.thehockeynews....ense-of-the-canucks-mess/

No one was rooting against Sutter when he played for the Pens. We all wanted him to score clutch goals to help the team win and so that he could be traded for even more. Mission Accomplished.

I doubt you could find many hockey people who would argue that Bonino is better than Sutter.

Many here rooted against PBI (Pens best interest) last year by openly rooting against Sutter.

The Internet has created a new kind of fandom where being "right" is more important than your team winning or its players playing well. MAF would be the perfect example.
- hardnosed

That definitely exists. But those are the nut jobs. The Rossi's of the world, if you will. There are some here but not all.

I remember people saying they hope the Pens miss the playoffs and win the lottery...simply to prove they were right or JR is dumb for not protecting the pick.

I also know I mentioned before last season that Kunitz is likely done as a scoring forward. But it didnt make me feel better when he fell off a cliff in the second half. Simply that maybe we should have prepared for this given there were already red flags.

Apples and oranges, man, come on. Crosby and Malkin consistently put up points at even strength even when they go through a funk from time to time.

- YouMeAndDupuis9

But apparently they're supposed to produce at the same level all the time, all year long, or else it's a deficit of effort or skill?

Sutter's effort level was never questionable is all I'm saying.

I think youre a bit high on every one of them. Though if the forwards project the way they do, I guess the points will add up. Tang = 50 / Maatta = 42 / Pouliot = 30 / Cole = 22....everyone else less than 20.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Letang hit 54 in 69 last year with a pretty mediocre PP.

Maatta when healthy was averaging just around .4 ppg and now will take over top pairing dman full time.

Pouliot and Cole I have slotted in the second pair, both 2nd PPD with what will be a pretty good 2nd PP as well. If Cole continues/ups his play then he could hit around mid 30's. I think DP will take over for Letang on PP 1 sometime this season.

Everyone else is just kind of average numbers for 5 and 6 with a few points added based on what the goal totals were in the previous prediction.

Those are what I saw them topping out as if all goes according to plan.

America! Where everyone is offended by everything....


Who cares... the jab was funny... we go after each other on here all the time..

anyways.. did we trade scuderi yet?
- nh4442

Sounds like you're offended by America.

You think Glendening can make the move to defense and still put up 17 points? Also, isn't he on Detroit still?
- jmatchett383

Don't know why I said Glen instead of Clen. Same difference.

Ah, the idea that all opinions are equal. I think I do a pretty good job of supporting my arguments.

And I don't know how long you've been around here, but I don't jab. I don't make things personal.

It's always the other way around - like in this thread, where instead of talking hockey, we've got jokes about me and Sutter and Adams getting drunk together, like my personal happiness is somehow tied to my view of my favorite hockey team.
- hardnosed

Mine is

But apparently they're supposed to produce at the same level all the time, all year long, or else it's a deficit of effort or skill?

Sutter's effort level was never questionable is all I'm saying.
- hardnosed

Sutter, for all intents and purposes, seems like a fine guy that probably tried his best all the time. However, with that being said, the results weren't there so if it wasn't his effort, it was his skill set that didn't match what the Pens needed. Is that a fair assessment?

That definitely exists. But those are the nut jobs. The Rossi's of the world, if you will. There are some here but not all.

I remember people saying they hope the Pens miss the playoffs and win the lottery...simply to prove they were right or JR is dumb for not protecting the pick.

I also know I mentioned before last season that Kunitz is likely done as a scoring forward. But it didnt make me feel better when he fell off a cliff in the second half. Simply that maybe we should have prepared for this given there were already red flags.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Many posters were puffing their chests about the decline of Kunitz. It was sickening.

Sorry, it's just an issue I have with the new world of fandom. For me it reached its peak with Bruce Arians. The hate for that guy in Pittsburgh was off the charts, despite leading a rag-tag offense to a Super Bowl title. He was the scapegoat (or as Troy Barnes would say, the Escape Goat), while the OL was in utter shambles, and got ran out on a rail. Now the Steelers have made a huge investment in the OL, and their offense is going to be one of the best in the league. Jimmies and Joes > X's and O's.

Ah, the idea that all opinions are equal. I think I do a pretty good job of supporting my arguments.

And I don't know how long you've been around here, but I don't jab. I don't make things personal.

It's always the other way around - like in this thread, where instead of talking hockey, we've got jokes about me and Sutter and Adams getting drunk together, like my personal happiness is somehow tied to my view of my favorite hockey team.
- hardnosed

How are insults to the intelligence of other people, like you just did at the beginning of this post not personal? The only reason why you do a "good job" of defending your arguments is because you make your own arguments infallible by saying all other opinions are wrong. You refute analytical arguments on the basis that they're analytics which is fine. I get you're not a metrics guy, but then when people try to debate on your level of the eye test you call their observations "mythological" and leave it at that. That's not the defense of an argument. That's claiming that your opinion is right by the virtue of being your opinion.

That being said, I jabbed at you in good fun. I have agreed with you before on several occasions so I know you're not dumb. If I offended you with my jab I apologize. Honestly, if I ended up having a beer with Rob Scuderi tomorrow he'd probably end up becoming my favorite player.

Don't know why I said Glen instead of Clen. Same difference.
- Pens_Burgh

I know, just messing with you.

I know, just messing with you.
- jmatchett383

If you want to mess with me, at least buy me dinner first

Sounds like you're offended by America.
- wolfhounds

Just all the people who complain about everything and say they are offended by everything

How are insults to the intelligence of other people, like you just did at the beginning of this post not personal? The only reason why you do a "good job" of defending your arguments is because you make your own arguments infallible by saying all other opinions are wrong. You refute analytical arguments on the basis that they're analytics which is fine. I get you're not a metrics guy, but then when people try to debate on your level of the eye test you call their observations "mythological" and leave it at that. That's not the defense of an argument. That's claiming that your opinion is right by the virtue of being your opinion.

That being said, I jabbed at you in good fun. I have agreed with you before on several occasions so I know you're not dumb. If I offended you with my jab I apologize. Honestly, if I ended up having a beer with Rob Scuderi tomorrow he'd probably end up becoming my favorite player.
- Victoro311

I'm jabbing more today than I usually do. I got called out and reacted poorly to that, and I got a tooth pulled this morning so I'm not in the best mood to begin with.

I shouldn't have called anyone's assessment mythological. But remember that mine has not been the popular opinion, so I'm outnumbered and usually have 5 people (like now) to respond to at a time during these debates. The anti-Sutter argument has also been full of hyperbole (sorry, that's my opinion), and sometimes that gets annoying to push back against.

In football (I've run a popular Steelers site for the last 9 years though I'm just not very interested in football anymore), the eye test is easy to prove/disprove because I can go to the tape, pull a play, make a video and post the evidence.

I'm jabbing more today than I usually do. I got called out and reacted poorly to that, and I got a tooth pulled this morning so I'm not in the best mood to begin with.

I shouldn't have called anyone's assessment mythological. But remember that mine has not been the popular opinion, so I'm outnumbered and usually have 5 people (like now) to respond to at a time during these debates. The anti-Sutter argument has also been full of hyperbole (sorry, that's my opinion), and sometimes that gets annoying to push back against.

In football (I've run a popular Steelers site for the last 9 years though I'm just not very interested in football anymore), the eye test is easy to prove/disprove because I can go to the tape, pull a play, make a video and post the evidence.
- hardnosed

So.... Friends?