He certainly has his drawbacks, but he's one of those low talented dmen that you appreciate having on your team. As does his teammates. Difficult minutes, hard nosed, honest effort, keeps opponents honest, blocks shots and does a lot of little things well.

I think he's probably better suited on a good team where he isn't depended on a ton and can add that depth and take some physical minutes off the top guys during big games. Something he's done well in the past.

But either way, if you can't comprehend grossmans value, again, you really need to try and understand the nhl game better if you're gonna blog about it imo
- HB77

Again, you think anyone who disagree's with you is ignorant. I comprehend why you think Grossman has value and why some GMs and coaches also will.

There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players.

There's some debate whether anyone can actually be a good penalty killer anyways. Marginal skill differences without the puck vs a man advantage probably don't matter as much as people think.

I get why people think you need that inspiring, shot blocking animal back there, but there is a reason virtually all the best defenseman historically are offensive based.

If you can do what Grossman does and not be a possession black hole, then those are definitely some useful skills. But what you don't seem to get is that no matter how any shots you block and how many hits you throw, if you're penned in your own end all the time, then you aren't a good player.

This blog is a text book example of the issue with analytics. Not so much the analytics themselves, but the conclusions some draw from them.
- MJL

Yes suggesting that Rundblad was a good depth player that the team probably shouldn't have just given away, based on his almost otherworldly stats is just the definition of bizarre.

Tanner you flip-flop like a fish out of water. Now your saying the Yotes season is a lost cause?.....Because a month ago you were stating how they were going to surprise people and that they just might make the playoffs. What the heck? And you wonder why you get heckled so badly. And before you go there....My reading skills are just fine, And I do read the whole blog, So that angle is getting old as well. But keep trolling for hits, Because that's what your good at!
Now go get one of your alternate accounts to come defend your reasoning.
- camfor

That's offensive, I'm not even gonna reply.

Tanner you flip-flop like a fish out of water. Now your saying the Yotes season is a lost cause?.....Because a month ago you were stating how they were going to surprise people and that they just might make the playoffs. What the heck? And you wonder why you get heckled so badly. And before you go there....My reading skills are just fine, And I do read the whole blog, So that angle is getting old as well. But keep trolling for hits, Because that's what your good at!
Now go get one of your alternate accounts to come defend your reasoning.
- camfor

I thought the plan was to stink for 3 more years waiting for the prospects to start shaving?
And he wants them to sign Franson? Why?
So he can take minutes away from Gormley? I agree with Maloney, how many more seasons do they give Gormley? Until he's 28?

You don't know what you're talking about dude. It's not "outside the box" thinking to consider a slow, older, decling D man worse than one of the teams top prospects. I find it hilarious how condescending you are here when you consider that I've seen every game Brandon Gormley has played in the NHL and you - and I'm assuming here - probably haven't even seen him play twice, if at all.

Also, there's these things called stats which you can use to back up your argument, but even though you speak as if you had some authority, all you ever do is give an UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION.

Even though you accuse me of being different just for the sake of it, that actually couldn't be further from the truth: when not being a slightly ridiculous homer (hey I'll admit that) I pretty much back up what I think with stats when possible.

The problem with guys like you is that you think everyone who thinks differently than you must do so because of ignorance. Now that is boring.

Fact: before hurting his ankle, Gormley looked like a future star player. When he returned from his injury, he struggled a lot, so maybe the post injury pre healing Gormley is worse than Grossman.,

But have you seen Grossman play? Have you looked into his stats? You're being pretty dumb here man.
- James_Tanner

Just because you don't understand the nuances of the game and therefore don't put stock in anything u can't quantify or that they don't keep records of, doesn't mean it's not extremely valuable.

As I've said, it's more to do with your misunderstanding of the nhl game.

Yes, super dumb to suggest a 23 year old that has proven absolutely nothing in the show, and is on his last legs/chance with one of the worst teams in the league isn't better than a proven nhl vet.

You're every bit as narrown minded as those you accuse of the same. Worst part is that you've convinced yourself otherwise

Again, you think anyone who disagree's with you is ignorant. I comprehend why you think Grossman has value and why some GMs and coaches also will.

There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players.

There's some debate whether anyone can actually be a good penalty killer anyways. Marginal skill differences without the puck vs a man advantage probably don't matter as much as people think.

I get why people think you need that inspiring, shot blocking animal back there, but there is a reason virtually all the best defenseman historically are offensive based.

If you can do what Grossman does and not be a possession black hole, then those are definitely some useful skills. But what you don't seem to get is that no matter how any shots you block and how many hits you throw, if you're penned in your own end all the time, then you aren't a good player.
- James_Tanner

Grossmann can play, he's a warrior, he's a slow skater, but he competes harder than most guys.
If you think shot blocking means nothing, you haven't watched the Rangers.

Everyone's +/- and corsi and whatever are going to look decent when the coaching staff is terrified if putting them on the ice without Towes, Kieth AND Hossa at least out there to cover for them.

Again, you think anyone who disagree's with you is ignorant. I comprehend why you think Grossman has value and why some GMs and coaches also will.

There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players.

There's some debate whether anyone can actually be a good penalty killer anyways. Marginal skill differences without the puck vs a man advantage probably don't matter as much as people think.

I get why people think you need that inspiring, shot blocking animal back there, but there is a reason virtually all the best defenseman historically are offensive based.

If you can do what Grossman does and not be a possession black hole, then those are definitely some useful skills. But what you don't seem to get is that no matter how any shots you block and how many hits you throw, if you're penned in your own end all the time, then you aren't a good player.
- James_Tanner

Pronger, Robinson, potvin, bourque, Stevens, chara, Blake, etc weren't all fantastic in their own end?
Jesus man


Everyone of these guys were brilliant two ways. The mistake u make is assuming that the defensive parts of their games are after thoughts. They so aren't.

You're entitled to believe that offence is the only thing that matters in the nhl. While I'm entitled to remind you that you are so so wrong.

There has been so many stay at home defensive only guys that have been so valuable to coaching and team success that it's eye opening that you would debate their ineffectiveness. Unless of course you don't understand the game you're seeing

Pronger, Robinson, potvin, bourque, Stevens, chara, Blake, etc weren't all fantastic in their own end?
Jesus man

Everyone of these guys were brilliant two ways. The mistake u make is assuming that the defensive parts of their games are after thoughts. They so aren't.

You're entitled to believe that offence is the only thing that matters in the nhl. While I'm entitled to remind you that you are so so wrong
- HB77

And most of these guys mentioned were known for smart positional play, not their skating.

That's offensive, I'm not even gonna reply.
- James_Tanner

Because you know he is right.... You flip flop constantly. You said in another blog defense was over rated. Then you talked about wanting to get Couturier who excels at defense and shutting down top players. You then proceed to say Philly wants to be better now, and then offer prospects in the deal..... You make Mike Milbury look like a Hockey genius. Yet I wouldn't be supprised if that ahole was your idol.....

And most of these guys mentioned were known for smart positional play, not their skating.
- puckhead17

and one can't truly quantify positional play.
They don't even have possession which is a huge minus in tanners eyes.

Tanner uses the same confirmation bias he parrots about others. He only respects and understands offensive stats. Which incidentally are much easier to quantify.
Add to this a ton of homer bias and it's a bad mix.

and one can't truly quantify positional play.
They don't even have possession which is a huge minus in tanners eyes.

Tanner uses the same confirmation bias he parrots about others. He only respects and understands offensive stats. Which incidentally are much easier to quantify.
Add to this a ton of homer bias and it's a bad mix.
- HB77

He doesn't understand the game well enough to use most basic stats, yet tries to sell people ideas with advanced ones. Showing people corsi numbers over ridiculously small sample sizes doesn't mean poop.

That, and I love the "I've seen this guy play way more than you and I'm certain of it" bit. Always a good one.

Again, you think anyone who disagree's with you is ignorant. I comprehend why you think Grossman has value and why some GMs and coaches also will.

There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players.

There's some debate whether anyone can actually be a good penalty killer anyways. Marginal skill differences without the puck vs a man advantage probably don't matter as much as people think.

I get why people think you need that inspiring, shot blocking animal back there, but there is a reason virtually all the best defenseman historically are offensive based.

If you can do what Grossman does and not be a possession black hole, then those are definitely some useful skills. But what you don't seem to get is that no matter how any shots you block and how many hits you throw, if you're penned in your own end all the time, then you aren't a good player.
- James_Tanner

There are some serious fundamental issues that your premise is overlooking. First of all, there is a difference between being a more talented player, versus being a better player now. Secondly, you're comparing top level NHL defenseman to role playing defenseman. That's where your opinion goes off base. Neither Grossmann or Gormley are going to be mentioned in the conversation for top defenseman, or even close to that realm, anytime soo So that point is really moot.
Here's the biggest area where your opinion is off base, and what you're missing.
First thing is, hockey is a team game. No one player is responsible for the team being penned in it's own end all the time. That's pretty basic.
So let's dig deeper. There is a shortage of all around defenseman in the NHL. Players that can play in all situations, and in all roles. So what a lot of teams do in some instances, is they bring in role playing defenseman. Phoenix's management knows that the kind of team they have, they're going to spend a considerable amount of time defending in their own end. They also know that they have some young defenseman that they want to develop. The worst thing you can do to an young defenseman, who is struggling to develop and find his game, is to throw him to the wolves. To play him in the tough minutes, such as on the PK, and D zone starts. So what they do in some instances, is bring in a player like Grossmann to take some of those tough minutes and heavy lifting, so they can play the young defenseman in as many favorable situations as they can.
Grossmann is not strong with the puck, and he's not going to have good possession numbers, but that's not his game. Might as well judge him on how many goals he scored. What he can do and will do, is play solidly in his own end, add a physical element, block shots, and play well on the PK. Grossmann has one year left on his deal, so there isn't a lot of risk there. He's been brought in as a stopgap to take some of those hard minutes, to aid the young defenseman to develop, for the short term.

Also the statement you made, "There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players, is blatantly false. There most definitely is still room for player like that in the NHL. Simply because there isn't enough of the other kind to go around. There's so much more to looking at hockey than just blindly looking at corsi and other possession metrics, which are really team statistics. This is a text book case of how they're used incorrectly.

The above is what Phoenix's management knows and understands, that you're overlooking.

There are some serious fundamental issues that your premise is overlooking. First of all, there is a difference between being a more talented player, versus being a better player now. Secondly, you're comparing top level NHL defenseman to role playing defenseman. That's where your opinion goes off base. Neither Grossmann or Gormley are going to be mentioned in the conversation for top defenseman, or even close to that realm, anytime soo So that point is really moot.
Here's the biggest area where your opinion is off base, and what you're missing.
First thing is, hockey is a team game. No one player is responsible for the team being penned in it's own end all the time. That's pretty basic.
So let's dig deeper. There is a shortage of all around defenseman in the NHL. Players that can play in all situations, and in all roles. So what a lot of teams do in some instances, is they bring in role playing defenseman. Phoenix's management knows that the kind of team they have, they're going to spend a considerable amount of time defending in their own end. They also know that they have some young defenseman that they want to develop. The worst thing you can do to an young defenseman, who is struggling to develop and find his game, is to throw him to the wolves. To play him in the tough minutes, such as on the PK, and D zone starts. So what they do in some instances, is bring in a player like Grossmann to take some of those tough minutes and heavy lifting, so they can play the young defenseman in as many favorable situations as they can.
Grossmann is not strong with the puck, and he's not going to have good possession numbers, but that's not his game. Might as well judge him on how many goals he scored. What he can do and will do, is play solidly in his own end, add a physical element, block shots, and play well on the PK. Grossmann has one year left on his deal, so there isn't a lot of risk there. He's been brought in as a stopgap to take some of those hard minutes, to aid the young defenseman to develop, for the short term.

Also the statement you made, "There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players, is blatantly false. There most definitely is still room for player like that in the NHL. Simply because there isn't enough of the other kind to go around. There's so much more to looking at hockey than just blindly looking at corsi and other possession metrics, which are really team statistics. This is a text book case of how they're used incorrectly.

The above is what Phoenix's management knows and understands, that you're overlooking.
The abo
- MJL

Good post all around


He's been cheery picking the comparisons of top offensive guys to role playing defenders for ages.
I used to remind him of this, but his bias runs deep

Rise above it Tanner....Grossman blows.

Rise above it Tanner....Grossman blows.
- Just5

not much talent, but hes proven he can contribute in the nhl. gormley hasn't as of yet.
and the statement that players of his ilk have no place in todays nhl is unequivocally false

That's offensive, I'm not even gonna reply.
- James_Tanner

But you did.

Grossmann can play, he's a warrior, he's a slow skater, but he competes harder than most guys.
If you think shot blocking means nothing, you haven't watched the Rangers.
- puckhead17

He is way too much into anylitics. He doesn't understand that teams use anylitics as a tool and not the only reason for judging players. There is this thing called the "eye". Its actually a very useful tool...

use both the eye and anylitics.(but obviously more the eye) when aylitics show that Franson is a top pairing you know there is flaws in it

And most of these guys mentioned were known for smart positional play, not their skating.
- puckhead17

They also all brought offense. A defense only player can be useful, e.g Michalek. But Grossman isn't Michalek. To think i don't value defence is to completely misunderstand what I'm saying.

They also all brought offense. A defense only player can be useful, e.g Michalek. But Grossman isn't Michalek. To think i don't value defence is to completely misunderstand what I'm saying.
- James_Tanner

Omg they're the same (frank)ing player good grief

Rise above it Tanner....Grossman blows.
- Just5

As poor as Tanner's analysis is, it still has your's beat!

He is way too much into anylitics. He doesn't understand that teams use anylitics as a tool and not the only reason for judging players. There is this thing called the "eye". Its actually a very useful tool...

use both the eye and anylitics.(but obviously more the eye) when aylitics show that Franson is a top pairing you know there is flaws in it
- Santo_44

If you don't get that one needs both to formulate a relevant opinion, then it's nothing more than narrow minded belief And bias towards what you want to believe.

Which incidentally is exactly what tanner ceaselessly accuses others of....


Hockey is absolutely not a sport that can be judged on statistics alone. Or even more so than judging it by watching it. And as I've said; if u don't understand that, then you don't understand the game.

James you get to charged up over pairings. Arizona will ice 1 solid pairing with OEL & Stone, the other 2 pairings will be balanced with Grossman maning 1 & Michalek the other, helping train the 3 young Dman. Something along the lines of.

OEL, Stone.
Grossman, Murphy.
Michalek, Dahlbeck.
Gormley, Samuelsson.

I assume that Gormley, Dahlbeck & Samuelsson when everyone is healthy will rotate in & out as the #6 Dman until injuries hit or someone seizes the job..

You may not like Grossman but he brings good size, 6'4" 230 lbs & is a sound defensive specialist that is a willing hitter & shot blocker. He is a legitimate top 6 NHL defensemen. He's not flashy, he plays a simple game & although you may perceive him to be a bust offensively; which is correct, that's not his role. He's a stay at home Dman & very reliable.

When all is said & done I doubt that Grossman will actually finish in the top 4 for TOI/GP in Arizona. He sees zero power play time, will be a 2nd unit penalty killer, so he most likely finishes 5th in TOI behind, OEL, Stone, Michalek & Dahlbeck, barely logging more minutes than Murphy.

Don't get wrapped up in who's paired with who & who's a 1st unit, 2nd unit & 3rd unit pairing. I assume the 2nd & 3rd pairings will play similar amounts of minutes at even strength & the any variance in TOI/GP will be determined by who gets special team minutes.

I don't know what it is with you & veterans. As you like prospects so much perhaps you might be better served putting more of your energies into Jr hockey. To build a winning culture you need veterans to lead & mentor young players. That's why Vermette & Michalek were brought back & Grossman brought in. To help stabilize a young team in a full rebuild & allow time for all these young prospects to be integrated properly & not rused into positions they aren't ready to fill be it at forward or on D.

Be happy that numerous kids are getting their chances now. Reider, Domi, Duclair, Murphy, Dahlbeck, Gormley & Samuelsson. That's 4 rookies in their starting line up to start this season, 2 at forward & 2 at D & 4 other players with very limited NHL experience. That's over 30% of the starting roster with virtually no NHL experience. I think that's enough for now. Youth doesn't yield positive results in the win loss column it needs to be cultivated & allowed time to mature into NHL players.

They also all brought offense. A defense only player can be useful, e.g Michalek. But Grossman isn't Michalek. To think i don't value defence is to completely misunderstand what I'm saying.
- James_Tanner

No, I think you do value it, (you have to, that's the "Yotes" game)
Grossmann, when played with his mirror image, like Luke Schenn, wasn't as effective.
But paired with an offensive D man he can help, to call Gormley a better player than him is ridiculous. Grossmann can play 18 minutes, Gormley cannot, aside from their respective skills, styles being complete opposites.

Edit There must be a reason players like Grossmann are still around.
He does bring toughness, and plays the hard minutes, whereas a younger developing player mostly cannot.

Be happy that numerous kids are getting their chances now. Reider, Domi, Duclair, Murphy, Dahlbeck, Gormley & Samuelsson.
- striker777

Yeah I'm expecting to see Perlini and Dvorak as well this year. They have plenty of young talent coming up this year. It is hard to claim the Yotes are too focused on veterans unless you want 3/5 young players on ice at the same time and are content losing games due to mistakes as they gain experience.