Who's this MJL character? I don't see all the comments. Whatever he said just give it to him, I got no fight in me today.
- James_Tanner

There are some serious fundamental issues that your premise is overlooking. First of all, there is a difference between being a more talented player, versus being a better player now. Secondly, you're comparing top level NHL defenseman to role playing defenseman. That's where your opinion goes off base. Neither Grossmann or Gormley are going to be mentioned in the conversation for top defenseman, or even close to that realm, anytime soo So that point is really moot.
Here's the biggest area where your opinion is off base, and what you're missing.
First thing is, hockey is a team game. No one player is responsible for the team being penned in it's own end all the time. That's pretty basic.
So let's dig deeper. There is a shortage of all around defenseman in the NHL. Players that can play in all situations, and in all roles. So what a lot of teams do in some instances, is they bring in role playing defenseman. Phoenix's management knows that the kind of team they have, they're going to spend a considerable amount of time defending in their own end. They also know that they have some young defenseman that they want to develop. The worst thing you can do to an young defenseman, who is struggling to develop and find his game, is to throw him to the wolves. To play him in the tough minutes, such as on the PK, and D zone starts. So what they do in some instances, is bring in a player like Grossmann to take some of those tough minutes and heavy lifting, so they can play the young defenseman in as many favorable situations as they can.
Grossmann is not strong with the puck, and he's not going to have good possession numbers, but that's not his game. Might as well judge him on how many goals he scored. What he can do and will do, is play solidly in his own end, add a physical element, block shots, and play well on the PK. Grossmann has one year left on his deal, so there isn't a lot of risk there. He's been brought in as a stopgap to take some of those hard minutes, to aid the young defenseman to develop, for the short term.

Also the statement you made, "There is no place for Grossman's, Schenns, Polaks in the NHL anymore now that we can actually see what they contribute vs other players, is blatantly false. There most definitely is still room for player like that in the NHL. Simply because there isn't enough of the other kind to go around. There's so much more to looking at hockey than just blindly looking at corsi and other possession metrics, which are really team statistics. This is a text book case of how they're used incorrectly.

The above is what Phoenix's management knows and understands, that you're overlooking.
- MJL

I believe this was the comment everyone is referring to. MJL went HAM yo

Who's this MJL character? I don't see all the comments. Whatever he said just give it to him, I got no fight in me today.
- James_Tanner

Sorry, I don't accept forfeits!

...and their respective teams miss the playoffs
- Pecafan Fan

Washington signed Brooks Orpik.

...and their respective teams miss the playoffs
- Pecafan Fan

Yes, they miss the playoffs because of their 4th or 5th defensemen. Great point

Washington signed Brooks Orpik.
- MJL

Who actually played more minutes than Mike Green.
Dan Girardi played more than Keith Yandle and they went to the ECF.

Good teams still deploy physical, defensive players....and win games

Who actually played more minutes than Mike Green.
Dan Girardi played more than Keith Yandle and they went to the ECF.

Good teams still deploy physical, defensive players....and win games
- sbroads24

LA won cups with defenseman like Willie Mitchell, Robyn Regehr, and Matt Greene

A resounding victory for MJL.

Not sure Tanner will recover.
- PhillySportsGuy

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3Z1U3T8Iw

Who actually played more minutes than Mike Green.
Dan Girardi played more than Keith Yandle and they went to the ECF.

Good teams still deploy physical, defensive players....and win games
- sbroads24

But they shouldn't. It's such a bad argument to say hey teams do this, because teams make stupid decisions all the time. Dan Giardi is a horrible defensemen who makes everyone on the ice worse every time he plays.

Here is a link to a page that will show you that in the last seven years, all of the top 15 players who Grossman has played with have worse Corsi stats when he's with then then apart. It proves conclusively that he has a negative impact.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2008-15&sit=5v5

Gormley obviously has like 6.5 years less of data to look at, but at least he did positively impact some teammates.

It's pretty obvious: You could insert Gormley into a lineup and he wouldn't drag it down like Grossman does and ergo is already a better NHL dman.

Also, There is not a shortage of puck moving defenseman. IT's not like teams have to dress slow, plodding guys like Grossman, they do it on purpose because it takes a long time to convince people that something that has always been in the game is unnecessary.

I also take issue with the pansified idea that you have to ease players into the NHL. Christ, in virtually all other life situations you learn by challenging yourself. To think it's different for a pro athlete borders on ridiculous.

Don't judge Grossman on his possession numbers? OK THEN!

You do realize that if you don't have the puck, there isn't much you can do. Playing good D means getting the puck back, not running around while you don't have it. If you don't have the puck, there's not much you can do if you aren't getting it back.

If you play Gormley over Grossman your team will have the puck more, which is far more important than anything else.

Take this to the bank: if you don't have strong possession numbers you should be cut from the team. The only reason there is still players like that in the NHL you're not going to get everyone to realize everything at the same time and the NHL is still a place where you have a better chance of getting a job if you had one before: they reward horrible failure (Nonis and Loiselle both have jobs) and it's a very conservative place that doesn't treat new ideas positively.

For every Grossman that is bizarely still in the NHL, there's a T.J Brennan who is stuck in the AHL because of stubborn unrelenting outdated thinking. 6 pock moving D with not even a thought to physicality: that's how you'd build the best D possible.

Hell I thought this guy was really going to have a great argument: it sounds like every other dinosaur argument I've read. Boring and stuck on repeat about the past.

LA won cups with defenseman like Willie Mitchell, Robyn Regehr, and Matt Greene
- MJL

If you don't realize what's wrong with this argument, I can't help you.

But they shouldn't. It's such a bad argument to say hey teams do this, because teams make stupid decisions all the time. Dan Giardi is a horrible defensemen who makes everyone on the ice worse every time he plays.

Here is a link to a page that will show you that in the last seven years, all of the top 15 players who Grossman has played with have worse Corsi stats when he's with then then apart. It proves conclusively that he has a negative impact.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ue&season=2008-15&sit=5v5

Gormley obviously has like 6.5 years less of data to look at, but at least he did positively impact some teammates.

It's pretty obvious: You could insert Gormley into a lineup and he wouldn't drag it down like Grossman does and ergo is already a better NHL dman.

Also, There is not a shortage of puck moving defenseman. IT's not like teams have to dress slow, plodding guys like Grossman, they do it on purpose because it takes a long time to convince people that something that has always been in the game is unnecessary.

I also take issue with the pansified idea that you have to ease players into the NHL. Christ, in virtually all other life situations you learn by challenging yourself. To think it's different for a pro athlete borders on ridiculous.

Don't judge Grossman on his possession numbers? OK THEN!

You do realize that if you don't have the puck, there isn't much you can do. Playing good D means getting the puck back, not running around while you don't have it. If you don't have the puck, there's not much you can do if you aren't getting it back.

If you play Gormley over Grossman your team will have the puck more, which is far more important than anything else.

Take this to the bank: if you don't have strong possession numbers you should be cut from the team. The only reason there is still players like that in the NHL you're not going to get everyone to realize everything at the same time and the NHL is still a place where you have a better chance of getting a job if you had one before: they reward horrible failure (Nonis and Loiselle both have jobs) and it's a very conservative place that doesn't treat new ideas positively.

For every Grossman that is bizarely still in the NHL, there's a T.J Brennan who is stuck in the AHL because of stubborn unrelenting outdated thinking. 6 pock moving D with not even a thought to physicality: that's how you'd build the best D possible.

Hell I thought this guy was really going to have a great argument: it sounds like every other dinosaur argument I've read. Boring and stuck on repeat about the past.
- James_Tanner

Wow, there's so much that is wrong here, I don't even know where to begin. James, nothing personal, but you're the poster child for not understanding analytics, and why they're a problem with a lot of fans. You really didn't address any point I made, you just danced around it with ridiculous comments. For example you offer the comical opinion that the idea of not overburdening young palyers is pansified. That's all you offer, you don't actually offer any substance to support that opinion. There is clear evidence in the history of the NHL, how young players, especially defenseman have been rushed and given too much, and how it negatively affected their development. Any credible NHL analyst is aware of that.

Here is a news flash for you concerning possession James. The best possession teams in the league had the puck about 55% of the time. Most teams in the NHL including your Coyotes have it 50% or less. Which means what? Plenty of time having to defend without the puck. Guess what, playing Gormley isn't going to change that for the Coyotes.

Finally I'll finish wit a comment on one of the most ridiculous comments I've yet to read concerning possession analytics, and that's if you don't have good possession numbers, you should be cut from the team.

If you talk to the developers and pundits that have created and developed these statistics, they'll tell one fundamental truth. Good players on bad teams can have poor corsi numbers, and vice versa, bad players on good teams can have good corsi numbers.

Reading this reply, it's actually worse than I thought. You clearly don't have an open mind, and really don't understand Corsi and possession analytics.

If you don't realize what's wrong with this argument, I can't help you.
- James_Tanner

We're in agreement, you can't help me. You have to be able to help yourself first.

Wow, there's so much that is wrong here, I don't even know where to begin. James, nothing personal, but you're the poster child for not understanding analytics, and why they're a problem with a lot of fans.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Good cliche, but you're wrong. It's actually you who doesn't understand them.


You really didn't address any point I made,

Most of them were laughable.

you just danced around it with ridiculous comments.

Just because you're wrong and out of ideas, doesn't make everything you disagree with "ridiculous". I don't blame you though, it is very difficult to change your mind about things that you were brought up as the truth or just the way things are.


For example you offer the comical opinion that the idea of not overburdening young palyers is pansified. That's all you offer, you don't actually offer any substance to support that opinion. There is clear evidence in the history of the NHL, how young players, especially defenseman have been rushed and given too much, and how it negatively affected their development Any credible NHL analyst is aware of that.

Not true. There is a tendency to say that just because a player busted out of the NHL that they were givin too much too soon. This is a once size fits all excuse attached to virtually every player who fails. Giving players more responsibility not less will help them if they are destined to be pros. Clear evidence my ass. Now THAT is laughable.

Here is a news flash for you concerning possession James. The best possession teams in the league had the puck about 55% of the time. Most teams in the NHL including your Coyotes have it 50% or less. Which means what?

That the teams with bad possession will lose more games than they win because having the puck is has a bigger correlation to winning than anything else.

Plenty of time having to defend without the puck. Guess what, playing Gormley isn't going to change that for the Coyotes.


Oh, I'm the guy who doesn't understand. OK. What you don't seem to get is that the best player in the world at defending without the puck isn't even close to as effective as the guy who makes it so you don't actually have to defend at all. The range of Corsi is about 45 to 55 percent, meaning that each tenth of a percentage in change is massive. I don't even really think Grossman would be much better without the puck, but even giving you that, who cares? Gormley makes it so you have the puck more.

The fact that this is your argument and you previously tried to say I "was the poster child for not understanding analytics" is goddamned hilarious. You are way to ignorant to be throwing out that kind of BS.

Finally I'll finish wit a comment on one of the most ridiculous comments I've yet to read concerning possession analytics, and that's if you don't have good possession numbers, you should be cut from the team.

That's not ridiculous, it's true. Not just CF% (because obviously stats need context) but if you (Like Grossman) make every single player you play with worse because you are a drag on possession, then yes you should be cut.

If you talk to the developers and pundits that have created and developed these statistics, they'll tell one fundamental truth. Good players on bad teams can have poor corsi numbers, and vice versa, bad players on good teams can have good corsi numbers.

That's not true, you put it in context and make everything relative like I did with Grossman - if you followed the link, which I'm doubting now that you did.

Reading this reply, it's actually worse than I thought. You clearly don't have an open mind, and really don't understand Corsi and possession analytics.
- MJL

That last statement is the best. This reminds me of when my 2 year old gets snotty and condescending. Oh hockey buzz!

That last statement is the best. This reminds me of when my 2 year old gets snotty and condescending. Oh hockey buzz!
- James_Tanner

Every answer you gave is snotty and condescending, and further reinforces your lack of understanding of how to actually analyze corsi, and use it in the proper context. If you want to discuss analytics, let's do that, if not, then I'll move on. Every answer you highlighted in reply to my post, was again dancing around the subject. Not to mention how much of it was simply false.

I'll ask one simple question to you, that will illustrate what I'm talking about. If the Coyotes play Gormley in the same game situations and deployment that they plan on playing Grossmann in, what do you think is going to happen to Gormley's possession numbers? What else do you think is going to happen?

james,
you're learning a valuable hockeybuzz lesson today.

james,
you're learning a valuable hockeybuzz lesson today.
- kicksave856

Lol

This is incredible. And sad. And incredible.

This is incredible. And sad. And incredible.
- BINGO!

one can only hope this thread goes on forever

This is incredible. And sad. And incredible.
- BINGO!

and incredibly sad.

It is of the utmost Importance we continue to bump this thread

It is of the utmost Importance we continue to bump this thread
- PhillySportsGuy

*Kicks down front door*


What was John Scott's Corsi last year?

Yotes just don't have any Gamechangers needed to win games IMO.

oh boy

UFC star Conor McGregor on what would happen if he or Ronda Rousey fought Floyd Mayweather in MMA: "I would dismantle him in seconds. Ronda would dismantle him in seconds."

UFC star Conor McGregor on what would happen if he or Ronda Rousey fought Floyd Mayweather in MMA: "I would dismantle him in seconds. Ronda would dismantle him in seconds."
- watsonnostaw

shocking news

shocking news
- daeth

oil change today $128.00