....Which is my point that Shero didn't always trade picks/prospects.
- Blackstrom2

We know, Shero was actually very good at making "hockey trades." Further confusing us as to why he didn't make them more often. The issue most Pens fans have with Shero in trading is that when he did trade future assets (picks/prospects) it was almost exclusively for deadline rentals. Aside from Winnik, at least Rutherford is getting players back that have more team control with picks/prospects being dealt in trades.

wow, EA Sports is taking Kane off the cover of NHL 16 because of everything that is happening.
- cap1681

They should have put Keith on there. He has been their best player the last two SC runs.

We know, Shero was actually very good at making "hockey trades." Further confusing us as to why he didn't make them more often. The issue most Pens fans have with Shero in trading is that when he did trade future assets (picks/prospects) it was almost exclusively for deadline rentals. Aside from Winnik, at least Rutherford is getting players back that have more team control with picks/prospects being dealt in trades.
- jfkst1

hindsight is 20/20 bro. Didn't see you on here in 10-13 when he was making those deals chasing a cup.

They should have put Keith on there. He has been their best player the last two SC runs.
- jfkst1

They should put Zac Rinaldo on it, because hits.

hindsight is 20/20 bro. Didn't see you on here in 10-13 when he was making those deals chasing a cup.
- dbell646

I didn't know HB existed until last year. I was often on ESPN boards under the same name and then they changed their logins to Facebook which I don't have. Plenty of people were skeptical of the moves he was making at the time BTW.

Remember one thing Prospects are prospects. Not sure thing but prospects. I would rather have quality players than a whole bunch of wannabees

- ChrisMS

You have my condolences

hindsight is 20/20 bro. Didn't see you on here in 10-13 when he was making those deals chasing a cup.
- dbell646

He's not sexy though.

ESPN and SC are pretty much unwatchable. They have been for about 8 years now. Its a joke what they fill SC with these days. Reporters speculating on injuries, jamming BS rivalries down your throat (NY vs BOS) its just lame. Its always on in the locker at my gym and the crap they try to pass off is amazing.

If not for live sports Id def dump Direct TV although I like it much more than Comcast. I will be doing a lot of research on Apple TV.
- sammy87

Stopped watching many years ago. Agree completely. PU they stink.

Stopped watching many years ago. Agree completely. PU they stink.
- powerhouse

MLB, NFL and NHL networks is leading to the demise of ESPN. Not to mention they delve into WAY too much political correctness and social issues. I would imagine most people watch sports to take their minds off of all the crap going on in the world.

F ESPN

You cannot win a competition in pro sports without developining young players - that said, prospects don't win Stanley.

Unless your prospects are 100% certain to produce in the NHL you can 5 teams worth & still win zero.

I think if our young D develop the way we all want them to then this team will be fine for 4 to 5 years. In that time it will allow us to replace our prospects. In saying that injuries & inability to perform in the NHL will keep us short.

Having many prospects also has it's own issues, who gets paid & who gets traded? Having the mix of youth & experience wins you Stanley not a group of fresh faced high ranked pony tailed mirror carrying self indulgent scooter riding Iggy Azalia fans.

Just a note, the Hawks (who everyone agrees had/has a very good prospect pool), just gave away a couple of theirs without the benefit of them playing - some would argue that they gave them away by mistake, & a couple haven't even wanted to stay in the organisation & left for free. They won Stanley with a rental (cost them a 1st), & a cheap 1 year deal to prove his worth (& a relative injury free season which you count as being extremely lucky).

Where is the Rangers prospect pool rated this they sell prospects and picks off faster than we do? Murray and Jarry are both good prospects. Jeff Taylor looks like a steal. So does Simon. Oskar Sundquist, Connor sheath, Scott Wilson and Bryan Rust are NHL bottom 6 ready. Clendenning is a prospect is he not? Plotnikov is a prospect. It's really not that bad. There has to be teams that are worse.

Remember one thing Prospects are prospects. Not sure thing but prospects. I would rather have quality players than a whole bunch of wannabees
- holeinone

Great prospects usually means your team sucks.

And Chicago really hasn't drafted that well. They really haven't drafted many regular NHL contributors since the Kane/Toews drafts, and even those were Kane and Toews and literally nothing else. They've got some young guys from the last couple of years for whom it's too soon to tell, but in those 7 drafts since Kane, they've gotten Teravainen, Saad, Shaw and Kruger as their only regular contributors, with Hayes and Pirri playing regularly elsewhere.

In that time period, the Penguins drafted Muzzin, Bortuzzo, Bennett, Despres, Maatta, Pouliot, Harrington and Kapanen, all of whom figure to play full-time in the NHL this year.

To continue the thought, Chicago's success really dates back a long time - back to the 2004 draft and the couple before.

2004: Barker, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer
2003: Seabrook, Crawford, Byfuglien
2002: Keith, Burish

Between the contributions those guys made, to the draft picks they got when a bunch of those guys were traded, that was the foundation that the Hawks were built on. Add Toews and Kane to it, and there's not much else responsible for their success except the trade for Sharp and the signing of Hossa.

To continue the thought, Chicago's success really dates back a long time - back to the 2004 draft and the couple before.

2004: Barker, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer
2003: Seabrook, Crawford, Byfuglien
2002: Keith, Burish

Between the contributions those guys made, to the draft picks they got when a bunch of those guys were traded, that was the foundation that the Hawks were built on. Add Toews and Kane to it, and there's not much else responsible for their success except the trade for Sharp and the signing of Hossa.
- hardnosed

I think this year is the first real test for them in the cap era. They have paid their 2 stars big money & as a result have lost Saad & now possibly Kruger. They will have to rely on a few of their prospects which will put a strain in their supposed depth. A few injuries may even kill their season - or even this Kane saga may either save them if he gets terminated or destroy them like Voynov did to the Kings with a full cap hit but no player.

Their stars are ageing & the team depleted of first choice players - we'll see what their depth is like now.

I think this year is the first real test for them in the cap era. They have paid their 2 stars big money & as a result have lost Saad & now possibly Kruger. They will have to rely on a few of their prospects which will put a strain in their supposed depth. A few injuries may even kill their season - or even this Kane saga may either save them if he gets terminated or destroy them like Voynov did to the Kings with a full cap hit but no player.

Their stars are ageing & the team depleted of first choice players - we'll see what their depth is like now.
- Aussiepenguin

This Kane saga is going to ruin the Hawks. You have to think that eventually charges are going to be laid, once that happens the League will suspend him and his cap counts until he is either proven guilty or innocent.
If he doesnt go to jail (innocent, plea bargain whatever) then maybe he returns for the playoffs...maybe, or next season. That is the best case scenerio.

If he goes to jail, sure it opens up a bunch of cash for the Hawks, but its already too late for them to do anything with it. Saad is traded, Sharp traded, there is no one in FA that is going to come anywhere close to providing what Kane does. Sure they can resign Seabrook, whatever... This law suit is going to be what destroys the Hawks dynasty.

Think about losing Malkin in one shot and getting nothing in return except cap space, devastating.

This Kane saga is going to ruin the Hawks. You have to think that eventually charges are going to be laid, once that happens the League will suspend him and his cap counts until he is either proven guilty or innocent.
If he doesnt go to jail (innocent, plea bargain whatever) then maybe he returns for the playoffs...maybe, or next season. That is the best case scenerio.

If he goes to jail, sure it opens up a bunch of cash for the Hawks, but its already too late for them to do anything with it. Saad is traded, Sharp traded, there is no one in FA that is going to come anywhere close to providing what Kane does. Sure they can resign Seabrook, whatever... This law suit is going to be what destroys the Hawks dynasty.

Think about losing Malkin in one shot and getting nothing in return except cap space, devastating.
- stackthepads

They should have checked the underlying numbers on Kane's RAPE chart.

Replacement-level douchebag.

This Kane saga is going to ruin the Hawks. You have to think that eventually charges are going to be laid, once that happens the League will suspend him and his cap counts until he is either proven guilty or innocent.
If he doesnt go to jail (innocent, plea bargain whatever) then maybe he returns for the playoffs...maybe, or next season. That is the best case scenerio.

If he goes to jail, sure it opens up a bunch of cash for the Hawks, but its already too late for them to do anything with it. Saad is traded, Sharp traded, there is no one in FA that is going to come anywhere close to providing what Kane does. Sure they can resign Seabrook, whatever... This law suit is going to be what destroys the Hawks dynasty.

Think about losing Malkin in one shot and getting nothing in return except cap space, devastating.
- stackthepads

What is the cap hit expected if he is guilty? Its not the whole amount right?

Side note... I'm reading that if cleared, they might cut ties and trade him, offers are already in according to the Hawks writer's "source". Granted, this might be the same source that said Saad was a 0% chance of being traded the night before it happened >_>

hindsight is 20/20 bro. Didn't see you on here in 10-13 when he was making those deals chasing a cup.
- dbell646

I dont think that was the point. This is all stemming from someone saying Shero and Rutherford mortgaged the future in the same way, which I think is false for the reasons outlined.

Nothing to do with regretting deals in hindsight...just observing they are two different strategies for the most part.

They should have checked the underlying numbers on Kane's RAPE chart.

Replacement-level douchebag.
- hardnosed

#toosoon

This Kane saga is going to ruin the Hawks. You have to think that eventually charges are going to be laid, once that happens the League will suspend him and his cap counts until he is either proven guilty or innocent.
If he doesnt go to jail (innocent, plea bargain whatever) then maybe he returns for the playoffs...maybe, or next season. That is the best case scenerio.

If he goes to jail, sure it opens up a bunch of cash for the Hawks, but its already too late for them to do anything with it. Saad is traded, Sharp traded, there is no one in FA that is going to come anywhere close to providing what Kane does. Sure they can resign Seabrook, whatever... This law suit is going to be what destroys the Hawks dynasty.

Think about losing Malkin in one shot and getting nothing in return except cap space, devastating.
- stackthepads

The NHL allowed the Kings cap relief with the Voynov situation. They might do the same with Kane's situation at least until it is resolved. I would absolutely love to see the Blackhawks destroyed with Kane's dead money.

What is the cap hit expected if he is guilty? Its not the whole amount right?

Side note... I'm reading that if cleared, they might cut ties and trade him, offers are already in according to the Hawks writer's "source". Granted, this might be the same source that said Saad was a 0% chance of being traded the night before it happened >_>
- Guile

JR working this lead like the Kessel one? lol...or maybe we wait until hes bought out and we give him the Alex Semin $1.1M contract.

In seriousness, even if guilty of such a horrific thing, Mike Vick came back, so Kane will be gainfully employed as long as the league allows.

Great prospects usually means your team sucks.

And Chicago really hasn't drafted that well. They really haven't drafted many regular NHL contributors since the Kane/Toews drafts, and even those were Kane and Toews and literally nothing else. They've got some young guys from the last couple of years for whom it's too soon to tell, but in those 7 drafts since Kane, they've gotten Teravainen, Saad, Shaw and Kruger as their only regular contributors, with Hayes and Pirri playing regularly elsewhere.

In that time period, the Penguins drafted Muzzin, Bortuzzo, Bennett, Despres, Maatta, Pouliot, Harrington and Kapanen, all of whom figure to play full-time in the NHL this year.
- hardnosed

Kap and Harry are a bit premature as full time NHLers this year, no? But yea, you make a good point. Our drafting looks bad on paper but most teams have generally the same odds of NHL players drafted when you factor in one's traded away. The part nobody can argue is the forward drafting was awful. 6 of the 8 listed are defenseman and the one forward has bordered on bust.

I dont think that was the point. This is all stemming from someone saying Shero and Rutherford mortgaged the future in the same way, which I think is false for the reasons outlined.

Nothing to do with regretting deals in hindsight...just observing they are two different strategies for the most part.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Shero had a first round draft pick in 6 of his 8 seasons as GM. He had a second round pick in 6 of 8 drafts.

Rutherford has one first round pick in two years, with next year's likely gone too. He's made one second round pick in two years, and no third round picks in two years. So he's gotten two players in the top three rounds so far, with next year's #1 already out the window.

Rutherford has traded away two former first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick.

Shero was able to shuffle off some failed top picks that the organization had lost confidence in (Esposito, Morrow). Otherwise, he probably held onto guys like Caputi and Tangradi too long.

Shero mortgaged the future a time or two. Going all in on Iginla, Morrow and Murray would be an example. But the following year he gave up a pittance for Goc and Stempniak. The previous year the only trades he made were sending Letestu out and bringing in Vokoun for a 7th round pick. 2010 offseason he traded a 3rd to negotiate with Hamhuis, which was whatever. Aside from that there was the Neal trade and a 7th for Kovy at the deadline. Year before that the big deadline deal was a 2nd for Jordan Leopold. So really it's the all-in year that paints the picture of Shero mortgaging the future, meanwhile Rutherford has shipped out a boatload of picks within the last 15 months.

So the only big difference is that Rutherford has brought in slightly better bottom 6 depth and went out and got Kessel. Likely improvements, especially with Kessel, but my point remains that Rutherford and Shero have basically taken similar approaches.

Shero had a first round draft pick in 6 of his 8 seasons as GM. He had a second round pick in 6 of 8 drafts.

Rutherford has one first round pick in two years, with next year's likely gone too. He's made one second round pick in two years, and no third round picks in two years. So he's gotten two players in the top three rounds so far, with next year's #1 already out the window.

Rutherford has traded away two former first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick.

Shero was able to shuffle off some failed top picks that the organization had lost confidence in (Esposito, Morrow). Otherwise, he probably held onto guys like Caputi and Tangradi too long.

Shero mortgaged the future a time or two. Going all in on Iginla, Morrow and Murray would be an example. But the following year he gave up a pittance for Goc and Stempniak. The previous year the only trades he made were sending Letestu out and bringing in Vokoun for a 7th round pick. 2010 offseason he traded a 3rd to negotiate with Hamhuis, which was whatever. Aside from that there was the Neal trade and a 7th for Kovy at the deadline. Year before that the big deadline deal was a 2nd for Jordan Leopold. So really it's the all-in year that paints the picture of Shero mortgaging the future, meanwhile Rutherford has shipped out a boatload of picks within the last 15 months.

So the only big difference is that Rutherford has brought in slightly better bottom 6 depth and went out and got Kessel. Likely improvements, especially with Kessel, but my point remains that Rutherford and Shero have basically taken similar approaches.
- hardnosed

Its a much different sample size so its really hard to compare. You isolate JRs 15 months but Im sure you could take a 15 month chunk of Shero's tenure and make it seem really good or really bad.

I understand that the "all-in" year probably skews our overall view, but again, look at what he was giving up picks and prospects for....Doug Murray, Iginla, Kovalev, Morrow, Vokoun, Poni Express, Stempniak, etc. Mostly old ass players who were here just a few months!

Whereas JR has given up futures for Kessel and Perron at age 27-28 with term. Winnik doesn't count as we got that pick back.

Player for player trades I think both have done fairly well. Lovejoy/Cole trades cancel out. Sutter trade was a huge win. Kessel deal was even better.

Let's compare this to eye test vs. HERO charts. Rutherford is passing the eye test better for me. Better pulse on team needs. I'm more comfortable with him running the team than I would be Shero.

Unrelated to trading philosophies but Shero's biggest flaw was signing older players for too long of term and using pure dogpoop on the bottom 6.