To be fair, I'm probably proposing that we swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, I mean, I don't think it is cut and dry at all. I just think in general there's way too much "oh don't rush the poor little baby rookie" BS.

But yeah, I do think Strome can handle it. Why not? Guarantee he's been working his ass off to try and make it so it's not an issue. Is another year going to hurt him? No, but it's a waste.
- James_Tanner

Fair enough. He should, at the very least, get his 9 games. No questions asked.

Here is Josi's HERO chart for last season. What do these stats tell you Tanner?

I am genuinely interested btw.
- JakeTech19

Now let's see Muzzins. Because he is undoubtedly a top 5 d man in the league let alone top 25. So the difference should be very apparent.

Now let's see Muzzins. Because he is undoubtedly a top 5 d man in the league let alone top 25. So the difference should be very apparent.
- RonPielep

Your location is hilarious. You realize that if anyone is dumb enough to call him a top ten player then it's an actual fact that he's the most overrated player, right?

I don't even think you could legitimately put him in the top 25. Maybe at the very bottom of it.
- James_Tanner

you preach to everybody about thinking outside of the box
Yet here if someone wanted to say that Roman Josi could be considered for top 10 "d" man in the NHL they are "dumb"?
Have you seen him play? Far from overrated player!
You like your hero charts so well?
Take a look at Josi's #'s side by side with your man OEL's
but just straight up stats
goals assists points +/- sog mss ppg ppa bs
OEL- 23 20 43 -18 264 127 10 10 77
Josi 15 40 55 +15 201 55 3 12 209
from these stats a sane(not dumb) man could argue that Josi has way more production 5v5 as almost half of OEL's points came off the powerplay, Josi flat out put up better production #'s. He does a better job of getting the puck on net, He blocks almost 3 times as many shots as OEL. And His +/- is way better(had to put that in to put you over the edge)

- JakeTech19

Oops no ice time metric. I apologize, these are from two different sites.

No it isn't. Players have limited years in which they can play the game, keeping them in the minors to control their cost is immoral.

It's also unnecessary if you think about it because the odds of timing it so that you have a bunch of really good high-end prospects on ECLs along with a rosters worth of expensive star players so that you can work-around the salary cap are incredibly long.

The Ducks sort of did it when Perry and Getzlaf were rookies and they added Pronger and Niedermeyer, but I can't think of another example where it was really close. The Hawks didnt' win until they burned through Kane and Toews ECLs and neither did the Penguins. (Maybe they were close, I'd have to check).

Point is, like first round picks, faceoffs and body checks, ECLs matter, just not in the way that they're made out to be.
- James_Tanner

The value of quality young players is having them at cost effective prices. Even if they are on a RFA contract they are cheaper. If the NHL worked like the NFL used to where top rookies had huge contracts, their value wouldn't be all that great (which happened shortly before the NFL had their new CBA).

Here is Josi's HERO chart for last season. What do these stats tell you Tanner?

I am genuinely interested btw.
- JakeTech19

I have looked at the stats for all defenders and IMO Josi is a great offensive Dman who doesn't really make his linemates better or prevent the other team from getting any offense. He's a great player, don't get me wrong. Just think anyone calling him a top ten is out to lunch.

Now let's see Muzzins. Because he is undoubtedly a top 5 d man in the league let alone top 25. So the difference should be very apparent.
- RonPielep

Muzzin > Josi and it's not close.

Muzzin > Josi and it's not close.
- James_Tanner

Muzzin or Doughty?


1) Straight up who do you take?
2) Cap hit considered who do you take?

I will: if you honestly think Josi is close to a top ten D man, you're an idiot who shouldn't be allowed to even watch hockey.
- James_Tanner

Well you can go ahead and cover me with the same brush your using on him then.
Because I do see Josi as close to top 10 D-man in the league. Maybe not top 10, But definitely top 20.
I think you need to expand your horizons by watching other teams play the game we call hockey.
And stop with the name calling! Makes you look childish and narrow minded.

The value of quality young players is having them at cost effective prices. Even if they are on a RFA contract they are cheaper. If the NHL worked like the NFL used to where top rookies had huge contracts, their value wouldn't be all that great (which happened shortly before the NFL had their new CBA).
- jfkst1

The key to getting good value on contracts is identifying good players and signing them to long-term deals that will get cheaper over time. Like Tavares, OEL etc.

Don't get me wrong, ECLs are great, just saying burning a year of it isn't that bad when you consider it should help your player develop faster, since I think top-end players are going to grow more facing hard competition than having a year of being ridiculously better than their competition.

Muzzin or Doughty?


1) Straight up who do you take?
2) Cap hit considered who do you take?
- Nucker101

I take Muzzin, obviously. I just don't buy that he's Doughty-dependent.

Muzzin > Josi and it's not close.
- James_Tanner

It would appear that Muzzin is indeed the better player. Top 10? Hard to say. But without a doubt the better defender at this point in time. Both are great complementary pieces to the elite defenseman (Weber/Doughty) Only difference is Muzzin spent much more time away from Doughty last year than Josi did from Weber and still produced at a great rate. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was a fairly wide margin.

It would appear that Muzzin is indeed the better player. Top 10? Hard to say. But without a doubt the better defender at this point in time. Both are great complementary pieces to the elite defenseman (Weber/Doughty) Only difference is Muzzin spent much more time away from Doughty last year than Josi did from Weber and still produced at a great rate. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was a fairly wide margin.
- JakeTech19

Muzzin is arguably the most underrated player in the league.

Would love for you to make that list of 25 defenseman that you would take before Roman Josi

Muzzin > Josi and it's not close.
- James_Tanner

Show me the numbers you eye-testing jabroni.

Well you can go ahead and cover me with the same brush your using on him then.
Because I do see Josi as close to top 10 D-man in the league. Maybe not top 10, But definitely top 20.
I think you need to expand your horizons by watching other teams play the game we call hockey.
And stop with the name calling! Makes you look childish and narrow minded.
- camfor

You're probably right about the name calling, but it was specific to that one guy. Honestly, think what you want, it's no skin off my back.

Top Seven no one can argue, no order: Karlsson, OEL, Hedman, Keith, Doughty, Subban, Giordano.

Next tier: Boychuck, Shatenkirk, Pietrangelo, Weber, Muzzin, Brodie, Stralman, Kronwell, Suter , Ekblad, Carlson,Faulk, Byfuglien, Leddy, Letang, Sekara, Hamilton

After that, before you start getting into your Klefboms, Riellys, Klingbergs and Vatanens, I guess you could throw Josi in around 20-25.

Show me the numbers you eye-testing jabroni.
- RonPielep

Later gotta roll, but the #s for Muzzin are sweet.

Would love for you to make that list of 25 defenseman that you would take before Roman Josi
- camfor

Already ahead of you my good man.

Muzzin is arguably the most underrated player in the league.
- Nucker101

He has his moments though. For example, here is an awful pinch attempt. Leaving his partner completely exposed to the oncoming 2 on 1 which then results in a goal against. http://zippy.gfycat.com/AliveUnequaledDorado.webm

Again, here is Muzzin being out muscled in the corner by Dan Carcillo(!) which again, results in a goal against http://zippy.gfycat.com/AliveUnequaledDorado.webm

He has his moments though. For example, here is an awful pinch attempt. Leaving his partner completely exposed to the oncoming 2 on 1 which then results in a goal against. http://zippy.gfycat.com/AliveUnequaledDorado.webm

Again, here is Muzzin being out muscled in the corner by Dan Carcillo(!) which again, results in a goal against http://zippy.gfycat.com/AliveUnequaledDorado.webm
- JakeTech19

I'm a drunk idiot and messed up the second URL but you get the point.

The key to getting good value on contracts is identifying good players and signing them to long-term deals that will get cheaper over time. Like Tavares, OEL etc.

Don't get me wrong, ECLs are great, just saying burning a year of it isn't that bad when you consider it should help your player develop faster, since I think top-end players are going to grow more facing hard competition than having a year of being ridiculously better than their competition.
- James_Tanner

The sooner the ELC years are used up, the sooner the team has to pay for UFA years. Unless a team is confident the prospect is stagnating at lower levels, it's best to leave them in competition too easy too long than bring them up too quickly.

The sooner the ELC years are used up, the sooner the team has to pay for UFA years. Unless a team is confident the prospect is stagnating at lower levels, it's best to leave them in competition too easy too long than bring them up too quickly.
- jfkst1

Yes and no. Tavares is a great example in this case. Obviously Strome and Johnny T are different players on VERY different teams but I can almost guarantee you that Strome will be cheaper to resign if he plays out his ELC starting next year than if AZ were to wait. There is literally 0 proof to back up that last statement about bringing them up too quickly. Too many other factors are involved.

I think if all 30 GM's in the Nhl read this article, they would surely all say:
"Well thank god this guy doesn't work for us."

I think if all 30 GM's in the Nhl read this article, they would surely all say:
"Well thank god this guy doesn't work for us."
- cdanyluik1

I think they would say "Hey man, Randy Newman is the bee's knees."