The ECL argument would be valid if Arizona had any chance of taking advantage of dressing six rookies on ECLs and then supplementing them by spending to the cap on other star players.

Also, the Penguins are sort of a ridiculous example because drafting Malking Crosby, Letang, Fleury, and Staal all in a row is a one in a million occurrence. I see your point, I'm just saying, realistically, if you have smart cap management, burning the year isn't a big deal because most cases where you can take advantage of having them are long-shot best case scenarios.
- James_Tanner

It serves more than one purpose. You're not just rolling the dice and hoping a bunch of players can all be ready to play at once on ELC. Arizona never spends close to the cap. They do, however, have an internal budget. Having even one player on the roster produce well on an ELC is a big help.

Top 20 defensemen as of this writing, IMO...

Weber
Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Hedman
Subban
Suter
Pietrangelo
McDonaugh
Josi
Letang
OEL
Giordano
Chara
Carlson
Seabrooke
Shattenkirk
Faulk
Stralman
Kronwall

After doing this, I've decided the only thing most people would probably agree on are the first 6, albeit maybe not in that exact order. 7-20 is a crap shoot depending on who you ask. I'm actually intrigued to see a couple of other posters do this just to get some different opinions.

Oh ok, the difference is OEL makes all of his team-mates better, but doesn't do a good enough job for his team to even be remotely good, let alone make the playoffs.

Roman Josi plays half the game and in all situations on a much better team, but he's just an offensive dman who doesn't make anyone around him better. Brilliant.

You will never be able to effectively quantify how much a player "makes his team-mates better" in the game of ice hockey. Never.
- mochoson

Josi plays with arguably the best defensive/two way dman in the game every night. OEL does it virtually by himself. I think this needs to be taken into account.

Oh ok, the difference is OEL makes all of his team-mates better, but doesn't do a good enough job for his team to even be remotely good, let alone make the playoffs.

Roman Josi plays half the game and in all situations on a much better team, but he's just an offensive dman who doesn't make anyone around him better. Brilliant.

You will never be able to effectively quantify how much a player "makes his team-mates better" in the game of ice hockey. Never.
- mochoson

Well, yeah you can, there's tons of charts and graphs for it. OEL and Josi aren't even the same league. Give it a rest.

Top 20 defensemen as of this writing, IMO...

Weber
Keith
Doughty
Karlsson
Hedman
Subban
Suter
Pietrangelo
McDonaugh
Josi
Letang
OEL
Giordano
Chara
Carlson
Seabrooke
Shattenkirk
Faulk
Stralman
Kronwall

After doing this, I've decided the only thing most people would probably agree on are the first 6, albeit maybe not in that exact order. 7-20 is a crap shoot depending on who you ask. I'm actually intrigued to see a couple of other posters do this just to get some different opinions.
- mochoson

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)
- James_Tanner

Are you saying Leddy is a top 10 D man? Or 25?

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)
- James_Tanner

Why, in your opinion, is Weber no longer top 10?

Well, yeah you can, there's tons of charts and graphs for it. OEL and Josi aren't even the same league. Give it a rest.
- James_Tanner

That's the rebuttal? You have graphs?

I repeat, you cannot and never will be able to quantify all of the positive things any player at any position does on the ice. I don't care about graphs, especially advanced stats. They're an overhyped tool at this juncture, and nothing more.

Josi plays with arguably the best defensive/two way dman in the game every night. OEL does it virtually by himself. I think this needs to be taken into account.
- JakeTech19

Ask any Nashville fan if Weber carries Josi in any way, shape, or form on the ice.

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)
- James_Tanner

So in your opinion, neither Weber or Josi are amongst the NHLs top 10 best defensemen?

Im really not trying to be a Richard, but I can't take this debate seriously anymore.

Ask any Nashville fan if Weber carries Josi in any way, shape, or form on the ice.
- mochoson

Not saying that he carries him, but Weber is significantly better than any partner OEL had this past season. Yandle would be the closest comparable and even then it's not very close if you ask me. Both are solid young d men with bright futures but I believe OEL is the better player right now.

Interesting take on the concept of rushing players James.

I disagree with you. I look at real life examples of teams that have rushed players and teams that haven't. The Oilers having rushed players and the Red Wings having not. I think the results speak for themselves.

Josi plays with arguably the best defensive/two way dman in the game every night. OEL does it virtually by himself. I think this needs to be taken into account.
- JakeTech19

OEL does what by himself exactly? Lead his team to having the 3rd worst GA in the league?

Interesting take on the concept of rushing players James.

I disagree with you. I look at real life examples of teams that have rushed players and teams that haven't. The Oilers having rushed players and the Red Wings having not. I think the results speak for themselves.
- rangerdanger94

Mikhail Grigorenko

You could even argue rushing Tyler Myers to be a franchise defensemen at age 20 on a declining team hurt his development

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)
- James_Tanner

When did you change your name from Richard Cloutier and how much did it cost?

So in your opinion, neither Weber or Josi are amongst the NHLs top 10 best defensemen?

Im really not trying to be a Richard, but I can't take this debate seriously anymore.
- mochoson

Weber isn't, Leddy is.

Weber isn't, Leddy is.
- golfingsince

- Crimsoninja

My favourite aspect of all of this is that he suggest others not be allowed to even watch hockey.

My favourite aspect of all of this is that he suggest others not be allowed to even watch hockey.
- golfingsince

it's like a condition of a sentence from a judge. no contact with the victim

it's like a condition of a sentence from a judge. no contact with the victim
- Crimsoninja

It's pretty sad when people shock blog just to get views.

Well, yeah you can, there's tons of charts and graphs for it. OEL and Josi aren't even the same league. Give it a rest.
- James_Tanner

they are in the same league, Its called the NHL!
If I had to take one or the other I would take OEL, But to claim Josi isn't even in the same league is a very ignorant thing to say.
goals OEL(1st) 23 JOSI(tied 6th) 15
assists OEL (tied 70th) 20 JOSI(tied 9th) 40
points OEL(22nd) 43 JOSI(tied 5th) 55
We wont even get into the +/- thing
But blocked shots OEL(tied 150th) 77 JOSI (2nd) 209
And I know you will try and spin the whole hero chart thing and all. But before you do I suggest you look at Weber's chart on that same Nashville team that looks almost identical to Josi's. And also admit that Josi's chart looks pretty damn good against most of the D-men you have ranked above him.

This isn't in order is it? Cause Weber ain't a top ten Dman anymore, in my opnion.

You also don't have Leddy on here, who is.

Brodie, Muzzin, Ekblad and Sekera are all better than Josi. Where they at? Decent list though man, I've seen worse (probably made a worse one too to be honest)
- James_Tanner

you mean his 3 goals 20 assists are better then
Josi's 15 goals and 40 assists?

you mean his 3 goals 20 assists are better then
Josi's 15 goals and 40 assists?
- camfor

Analytics, devaluing goals and assists since 2012

Why, in your opinion, is Weber no longer top 10?
- JakeTech19

Because there's better guys than him overall. Like, I'd take Leddy over Weber at this point in their careers.

So in your opinion, neither Weber or Josi are amongst the NHLs top 10 best defensemen?

Im really not trying to be a Richard, but I can't take this debate seriously anymore.
- mochoson

They definitely aren't. And it's cool to disagree bud, it doesn't make you a jerk. But you also can't write off stats.