If you look at advanced metrics, Utley's five year stretch from 2005-2009 was the greatest ever by a 2nd baseman.

Even after those years, Utley was still a good player. Elite hitter, elite base runner, elite defender.

Howard was one dimensional. He hit homers, but was below average in every other category. Couldn't run, couldn't get on base enough and was a butcher in the field. Howard will also be compared to other 1B. Utley should be compared to 2B.

Howard highest WAR was 5.2 during his MVP season. Utley had 6 seasons higher than that. During his 5 year stretch, he had a WAR of 40! That's unheard of. He would have won an MVP if advanced metrics were used more back then.
- PhillySportsGuy

I don't think he was ever an elite defender.

So TB asks for Morin and Schenn. Do you still drive Schenn airport?
- TheGreat28

No, but I'd think about it. Probably wouldn't do it, but I'd definitely give it some thought. I think Morin is a much better prospect than Hagg and I'd be very leery about moving him in any deal.

I agree that Biggio has longevity and Gold gloves over Utley. I still think when looking at the kind of player Utley was, how he played the game, along with his production, he's a Hall of Fame level player. He likely won't get in for some of the reasons that you mention, but I would vote yes.
- MJL

He'll get some votes, without a doubt. But I don't think he'll get the 75% needed to get into Cooperstown.

No, but I'd think about it. Probably wouldn't do it, but I'd definitely give it some thought. I think Morin is a much better prospect than Hagg and I'd be very leery about moving him in any deal.
- BiggE

Im not sold on Drouin.. Something off putting about him.

Also has way less heart, physical ability, and two way play. Also, personally think he seems like a total J/O.


Schenn hasnt broken out as most have hope he would, but he also isnt a dud.
- jak521

The guy just turned 20, he could still mature and develop into a fantastic player.
Right now, I agree that B Schenn is the better player, but I think that Drouin has a significantly higher ceiling.

I don't think he was ever an elite defender.
- J35Bacher

He was a very good fielder, but never at the level of a Biggio or Sandberg in their primes.

Also has way less heart, physical ability, and two way play. Also, personally think he seems like a total J/O.


Schenn hasnt broken out as most have hope he would, but he also isnt a dud.
- jak521

But the team needs creativity and speed.

I'll sacrifice some physicality and two way play. Also heart is questionable. What is heart? If Drouin scores 25 goals and 50 assists is that heart?

I picked Drouin because its a name that has been floated as available in reports. But just as easily i could pick others that I would target if they were looking to move Schenn for Young talent.

My point is I am not moving Schenn unless the piece coming back has value. I am not doing something like Schenn for Doan.

The play I want would have some parameters.

Skill
Speed
Young

Im not sold on Drouin.. Something off putting about him.
- jak521

Yeah, he comes off as a bit of a spoiled brat. But again, he just turned 20. Plenty of time for him to grow up and get it. He still has the potential to be a 30+ goal, 75+ point first line forward. You most likely will never see numbers like that from Schenn.

The guy just turned 20, he could still mature and develop into a fantastic player.
Right now, I agree that B Schenn is the better player, but I think that Drouin has a significantly higher ceiling.
- BiggE

As a playmaker? No doubt. What about as the total player? I dont know.

I think Drouin could be verry good, but there is something I just dont like. I am biased though. I have felt this way since he was talked about being the #1 pick. I just dont think he is gonna be the superstar some people think he will become.

I don't think he was ever an elite defender.
- J35Bacher

He grades out as an elite defender. He was awkward, but he had incredible range and his baseball instincts helped as well.

Gold gloves were pretty irrelevant before advanced metrics. Bobby Abreu won a gold glove. Derek Jeter at 38 won a gold glove at shortstop despite having no range at all.

Those awards were popularity contests and were based on who made the most diving catches. The fact is that most of those Jeter throws from the 5.5 hole would have been easily gotten to by Rollins. Jeter just made it look more dramatic and, therefore, made it look like he was making a better play.

But the team needs creativity and speed.

I'll sacrifice some physicality and two way play. Also heart is questionable. What is heart? If Drouin scores 25 goals and 50 assists is that heart?

I picked Drouin because its a name that has been floated as available in reports. But just as easily i could pick others that I would target if they were looking to move Schenn for Young talent.

My point is I am not moving Schenn unless the piece coming back has value. I am not doing something like Schenn for Doan.

The play I want would have some parameters.

Skill
Speed
Young
- J35Bacher

He grades out as an elite defender. He was awkward, but he had incredible range and his baseball instincts helped as well.

Gold gloves were pretty irrelevant before advanced metrics. Bobby Abreu won a gold glove. Derek Jeter at 38 won a gold glove at shortstop despite having no range at all.

Those awards were popularity contests and were based on who made the most diving catches. The fact is that most of those Jeter throws from the 5.5 hole would have been easily gotten to by Rollins. Jeter just made it look more dramatic and, therefore, made it look like he was making a better play.
- PhillySportsGuy

True, but when you win 4 Gold gloves like Biggio or 9 like Sandberg, that's not a fluke.

He was a very good fielder, but never at the level of a Biggio or Sandberg in their primes.
- BiggE

If I had to pick a player to compare Utley to it would probably be Jeff Kent.

JSaq never gave his opinion about the deal. He simply gave reasoning as to why the deal was made. Even prefaced it by saying it was a bad hockey trade. Are you Retaldo?
- PhillySportsGuy

Be careful....after you slap him around and embarrass him more than he embarrasses himself, he'll resort to sending you very weak attempts of insults via PMs

Be careful....after you slap him around and embarrass him more than he embarrasses himself, he'll resort to sending you very weak attempts of insults via PMs
- KINGKENZO

Oh, I know

No, but I'd think about it. Probably wouldn't do it, but I'd definitely give it some thought. I think Morin is a much better prospect than Hagg and I'd be very leery about moving him in any deal.
- BiggE

I'm not as high on Morin as most on the board. I question the potential of his offensive game. He still needs to work on his footwork, recovery, and some other things before he'll make it in the NHL. I think he's a bigger project than many here, and probably 2 years away at best. Considering where they picked him, I would have looked for someone with more offensive or 2-way potential, particularly WHEN they picked him (remember, that was back when we had no real strong D prospects). I've said it before, but he stands a very good chance of being the next great whipping boy on HB.

BUT....

Now that they have Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost, three guys with strong offensive skills, Morin fits into the mix much better. I think he'll end up being a shut-down, physical guy in time, and if he can at least get to that level he really complements them. He'll fit solidly into top 4.

So right now I'd be hesitant to do that deal, even though I've never been a big fan of Morin.

Be careful....after you slap him around and embarrass him more than he embarrasses himself, he'll resort to sending you very weak attempts of insults via PMs
- KINGKENZO

I'm not as high on Morin as most on the board. I question the potential of his offensive game. He still needs to work on his footwork, recovery, and some other things before he'll make it in the NHL. I think he's a bigger project than many here, and probably 2 years away at best. Considering where they picked him, I would have looked for someone with more offensive or 2-way potential, particularly WHEN they picked him (remember, that was back when we had no real strong D prospects). I've said it before, but he stands a very good chance of being the next great whipping boy on HB.

BUT....

Now that they have Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost, three guys with strong offensive skills, Morin fits into the mix much better. I think he'll end up being a shut-down, physical guy in time, and if he can at least get to that level he really complements them. He'll fit solidly into top 4.

So right now I'd be hesitant to do that deal, even though I've never been a big fan of Morin.
- TheGreat28

I agree that Morin will take some time to develop, most guys his size do. What I like about him, other than his size and reach which are obvious, is that he skates pretty well for a big guy and he seems to recognize the weaknesses in his game and is willing to work on them. I also like the fact that he has some mean in his game. You still need at least one dman on the roster that can be physically imposing, win battles in the corners and clear the porch and Morin will be that guy. I also love the way he steps in and stands up for teammates, that is the kind of heart and leadership you want on your team.

Like you said, I think Morin will be a great complement to the more skilled Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost and he will be a key guy on the PK and one of the 2 dmen you want on the ice when protecting a lead in the last minute of a game.

I'm not as high on Morin as most on the board. I question the potential of his offensive game. He still needs to work on his footwork, recovery, and some other things before he'll make it in the NHL. I think he's a bigger project than many here, and probably 2 years away at best. Considering where they picked him, I would have looked for someone with more offensive or 2-way potential, particularly WHEN they picked him (remember, that was back when we had no real strong D prospects). I've said it before, but he stands a very good chance of being the next great whipping boy on HB.

BUT....

Now that they have Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost, three guys with strong offensive skills, Morin fits into the mix much better. I think he'll end up being a shut-down, physical guy in time, and if he can at least get to that level he really complements them. He'll fit solidly into top 4.

So right now I'd be hesitant to do that deal, even though I've never been a big fan of Morin.
- TheGreat28

I think Hagg could be the odd guy out in defensive prospects. We talk about the other 4 but the Friedman kid at bowling green I think will be a real good. Also Wilcox at Cornell could turn into a solid stay at home guy with a good outlet pass type.

But you never know.

True, but when you win 4 Gold gloves like Biggio or 9 like Sandberg, that's not a fluke.
- BiggE

Not saying they were undeserved, but it was literally impossible to judge the best defensive player back then. You could make educated guesses.

If you look back in history, gold gloves were given to mostly household names. Look at the gold glove winners last year. I bet most people have no idea who they are.

know what is hard?

Finding flights for recruits from Idaho.
- nails

I've missed the swimming wars.

Be careful....after you slap him around and embarrass him more than he embarrasses himself, he'll resort to sending you very weak attempts of insults via PMs
- KINGKENZO

slap me around, sure why not. embarrass myself, yeah ok sure.

you like some slap and tickle action?

slap me around, sure why not. embarrass myself, yeah ok sure.

you like some slap and tickle action?
- rinaldo

He does. I've seen it.

Im not sold on Drouin.. Something off putting about him.
- jak521

The whole, him female doging about not playing thing in the playoffs , was off putting to me honestly. He's what, 19 or 20? Still small, still has a lot to improve as far as his defensive game goes, he really wasn't all that dazzling in the reg season despite being the "favorite" for the Calder the offseason before, what position was he in to female dog like that? Again he's only 19 or 20 so he's got time to mature.

He does. I've seen it.
- PhillySportsGuy

Well, you know, don't knock it til ya try it.

just sayin......