The argument is that he is SO good at driving possession and keeping the puck in the offensive zone that he doesn't even need to play defense most of the time. All offensive dmen are going to leave gaps in the d zone. That is exactly why you pair him with a player like Methot. He relies on no one. Because no defenseman today plays like Karlsson. This is what the Sens blogger was saying.
- Mordecai

His offensive stats were not good without Methot. He is not overly good at defense at the best of times. He doesn't PK. So without Methot he is only an average D. That doesn't sound like a great or top 5 player to moi.

His offensive stats were not good without Methot. He is not overly good at defense at the best of times. He doesn't PK. So without Methot he is only an average D. That doesn't sound like a great or top 5 player to moi.
- Aussiepenguin

You obviously have not watched him play.
He's arguably the most entertaining player in the world right now.

You obviously have not watched him play.
He's arguably the most entertaining player in the world right now.
- TheCalSen

I don't doubt he's great to watch, but that doesn't make him a top 5 player in the NHL.

Doesn't even make him a good D. Which is what I'm commenting on.

You obviously have not watched him play.
He's arguably the most entertaining player in the world right now.
- TheCalSen

who...??

who...??
- Ur Not Me

John Scott.

John Scott.
- John Jaeckel

STUD!!!!

STUD!!!!
- Ur Not Me

Plays defense & attack - 1 in a million!

My list -
1 - Weber : Simply has more tools at his disposal than any other d man. He is a monster of a man who can move, shoot, and control offense. No one is better at cleaning things up in his own end, and can move the puck out of his end. If you are building the perfect Dman, you are building Weber.
2 - Keith : The D man who is tricky, intelligent and lifts his game up when it matters. If you want a guy out there when the cup or a gold medal is on the line, Keith is the guy. Keith is just a winner. Sure, he's been on good teams, but he is a guy that figures out ways to make his team win. He''s done it in the playoffs and internationally.
3 - Karlsson : Most talented offensive D man a margin so large at this point, it's becoming difficult to measure. If you want to make sure the puck is going to leave your end and enter the offensive zone as quickly as possible, he will get it there. You'll go from your own end to looking to score before any one knows what's happening. He'll use a quick stick check to turn an odd man rush against to a rush going the other way in a flash.
4 - Doughty : He may not be the best at any single component, but he is probably in the top 5 in every. Single. Aspect. His game is so well rounded, it's difficult to find a hole in it. On top of all that, he never makes mistakes. That is a spooky kind of perfection. Doughty the player a coach would dream of. If Doughty has a job, it gets done.
5 - Hedman : Hedman has slowly developed into a guy you just stand back and say 'damn, that guy is good'. The thing is, it's happened so gradually I can't place my finger on when it happened. He's still getting better. We could be talking about Hedman for a long time.

Didn't your blogger show the stats that when he was away from Methot his numbers were poop? So if a D man 'has' to have a certain partner I wouldn't call him the best at anything. The best should be able to play with anyone & succeed.
- Aussiepenguin

Name a single Dman in the league who wouldn't have his stats tumble badly when playing beside the 36 year old version of Chris Philips?

His offensive stats were not good without Methot. He is not overly good at defense at the best of times. He doesn't PK. So without Methot he is only an average D. That doesn't sound like a great or top 5 player to moi.
- Aussiepenguin

Not having to play defense for more than half of the time you are on the ice is better than being really really good at boxing out, clearing the crease, poke checking, stick lifting, hitting, holding the blueline, etc

You obviously have not watched him play.
He's arguably the most entertaining player in the world right now.
- TheCalSen

That would be Byfuglien...

Name a single Dman in the league who wouldn't have his stats tumble badly when playing beside the 36 year old version of Chris Philips?
- MaxTLimit

Well ok then, he's only a good player when he plays with Methot.

Not having to play defense for more than half of the time you are on the ice is better than being really really good at boxing out, clearing the crease, poke checking, stick lifting, hitting, holding the blueline, etc
- Mordecai

I don't understand if he's that good why the Sens have won a cup while he's been playing? Sounds like he's carrying the team - only when he plays with Methot mind you, , & if he is that good they should be better. If he's in the offensive zone every single time he has the puck why don't the Sens score more goals? If he is that good surely they would throw him on the PK that way they would play the whole PK in the offensive zone? Do I understand you or have I not understood correctly?

Seems a little over rated at this stage & there appears to be plenty of excuses around his deficiencies - he's a bit like Corsi.

I don't understand if he's that good why the Sens have won a cup while he's been playing? Sounds like he's carrying the team - only when he plays with Methot mind you, , & if he is that good they should be better. If he's in the offensive zone every single time he has the puck why don't the Sens score more goals? If he is that good surely they would throw him on the PK that way they would play the whole PK in the offensive zone? Do I understand you or have I not understood correctly?

Seems a little over rated at this stage & there appears to be plenty of excuses around his deficiencies - he's a bit like Corsi.
- Aussiepenguin

If not for Karrllson or whomever the Senators would basically be the Leafs.

If not for Karrllson or whomever the Senators would basically be the Leafs.
- Jeropotato

& Corsi just like plus/minus......oh wait??

Die Hard Sens Fan

At the moment:

1a. Duncan Keith: His skating, hockey sense, and just unreal endurance make him the best D-man in the game right now. There's few holes in his game and with 3 cup rings, he's in Scott Neidermyer's thrown rigt now.

1b. Erik Karlsson: his offensive game so strong that somehow he is considered poor defensively. He is not given enough credit for his defense. His turnovers are what he needs to improve - not his play away from the puck!

3. Drew Doughty: when the game gets bigger so does he. LA had a bad year but this guy could win the norris every year if he's consistent throughout - among other factors.

4. Shea Weber: This guy is a force and easily could of won the norris had he kept his first half up. Best defensive D-man imo.

5. P.K. Subban: How is not in the top 5

*Hedman and OEL are going to jump up the ranks next year.
(John Jaeckel gimme some of what your smoking because Karlsson is top 5 in anyone's books)

If not for Karrllson or whomever the Senators would basically be the Leafs.
- Jeropotato

These kind of comments should have people banned for life

John Jaeckel

clearly this guy does not watch hockey

John Jaeckel

clearly this guy does not watch hockey
- since93

No, I don't watch hockey. Ever. Never seen those Ottawa Senator guys.

I have explained my rationale in this thread. Have a groovy day.

I think if you look at my list versus the others, you will see I put defense first, or at least being as important as what the guy contributes offensively. I like Karlsson, absolutely, but . . .
- John Jaeckel

...... the only thing that can follow that but is ....."but I've never actually seen Karlsson play. I just read what is on the Leaf threads and base my opinion on that."

Not having Karlsson in your top five is just plain out crazy

I can see the arguments of where he would slot in in a top 3 discussion, but to not make a T5 list tells me you are simply looking for a reaction.

He has won two Norris trophies - TWO....

Despite what people think EK plays the PK - watch the games and you'll see. Granted, he doesn't put people through the boards, but he is at worst above average defensively. Then factor in that he is the best offensive defenseman the league has seen since Bobby Orr .....

if he stays healthy this year, Karlsson will win a third Norris

Die Hard Sens Fan

At the moment:

1a. Duncan Keith: His skating, hockey sense, and just unreal endurance make him the best D-man in the game right now. There's few holes in his game and with 3 cup rings, he's in Scott Neidermyer's thrown rigt now.

1b. Erik Karlsson: his offensive game so strong that somehow he is considered poor defensively. He is not given enough credit for his defense. His turnovers are what he needs to improve - not his play away from the puck!

3. Drew Doughty: when the game gets bigger so does he. LA had a bad year but this guy could win the norris every year if he's consistent throughout - among other factors.

4. Shea Weber: This guy is a force and easily could of won the norris had he kept his first half up. Best defensive D-man imo.

5. P.K. Subban: How is not in the top 5

*Hedman and OEL are going to jump up the ranks next year.
(John Jaeckel gimme some of what your smoking because Karlsson is top 5 in anyone's books)
- AlfieisKing

R u playing the homer card...???

No, I don't watch hockey. Ever. Never seen those Ottawa Senator guys.

I have explained my rationale in this thread. Have a groovy day.
- John Jaeckel

people got to relax a bit. you can make a case for pretty much anyone being outside the top 5 because the top 7-10 guys are so close together anyway and some of them have vastly different games. i would have EK in my top 5 but i understand how people would leave him out. same with Subban. it's a really tough ranking.

Well ok then, he's only a good player when he plays with Methot.
- Aussiepenguin

By that logic Weber is only good with Josi, Doughty is only good with Muzzin, and Keith is only good with Seabrook. Bad defense pairings will drag any good D man down. If you take any elite D man, and throw a borderline AHL player beside him for the toughest minutes, his stats are going to nosedive when compared to what they were beside a legit top pairing player.

...... the only thing that can follow that but is ....."but I've never actually seen Karlsson play. I just read what is on the Leaf threads and base my opinion on that."

Not having Karlsson in your top five is just plain out crazy

I can see the arguments of where he would slot in in a top 3 discussion, but to not make a T5 list tells me you are simply looking for a reaction.

He has won two Norris trophies - TWO....

Despite what people think EK plays the PK - watch the games and you'll see. Granted, he doesn't put people through the boards, but he is at worst above average defensively. Then factor in that he is the best offensive defenseman the league has seen since Bobby Orr .....

if he stays healthy this year, Karlsson will win a third Norris
- SensnRBs

OK, but then there's the fact that I have seen him play numerous times. So there goes that theory.

By that logic Weber is only good with Josi, Doughty is only good with Muzzin, and Keith is only good with Seabrook. Bad defense pairings will drag any good D man down. If you take any elite D man, and throw a borderline AHL player beside him for the toughest minutes, his stats are going to nosedive when compared to what they were beside a legit top pairing player.
- MaxTLimit

Keith played A LOT with guys like Kimmo Timonen and Michal Rozsival on his way to the Conn Smythe trophy. Which were tough minutes all the way. Just saying.

By the way, Keith may have won his Norrises for big point totals because regrettably, that factors more than it should in the Norris voting these days, but he is a premier defender first.

My point is, the "he's won two Norrises" argument only matters if you think all a d-man should do is amass points. Because that's how the voters lean. Absolutely.

Remember when Mike Green was a "great" defenseman?

I think Karlsson is a very good defender, but no, I don't think he is as good defensively as the guys ahead of him on my list. Sue me.