although to be fair, I think there a few hiding in the example you provided
- stayinthefnnet

Like what, for example? After following the talking rabbit, drink the first thing that you can find whether or not you know what it is? Or to start eating height-altering mushrooms after the hookah-smoking caterpillar tells you to do so?

I'll answer. Yes, I can say truthfully that there are enough indications.
- MJL

I think I caused some confusion with my initial statement. To clarify, I had hoped one of those guys, including Couts, to project to be the main guy on a contending team's 2nd line, not necessarily at center though, someone even a good team would have to watch out for as an offensive threat whenever he is on the ice.

The standards are very high: Jeff Carter, Pavel Datsyuk, Tyler Johnson, Bergeron, Patrick Kane, to name players from recent very good teams. Admittedly these names are cream of the crop, but the best player on a 2nd line on a contending team is a high standard anyway, arguably a very good first-liner on an average team. Anyway, do you think Couts gets anywhere close to that echelon?

I think by saying I did not recall a single great play by Couts made it seem like I was saying he is a 4rth liner on merit, which is not true, of course. I have my doubts about his offensive upside, but lets leave that apart, do you really see him developing into the kind of offensive threat another good team has to game plan for?

Here are his playoff stats since his hat trick. Yes, I know his usage was different in those games and yes, I remember the Neal hit and yes, I know he is very young. But still:

Games: 16
Goals: 0
Assists: 0
+/-: -5

Again: note the standard: carrying the flag for a potential cup winning 2nd line, not just being average, not just being good.

Where did the wheel o' scratch land on for tonight? Which defenseman drew the short straw?

I think I caused some confusion with my initial statement. To clarify, I had hoped one of those guys, including Couts, to project to be the main guy on a contending team's 2nd line, not necessarily at center though, someone even a good team would have to watch out for as an offensive threat whenever he is on the ice.

The standards are very high: Jeff Carter, Pavel Datsyuk, Tyler Johnson, Bergeron, Patrick Kane, to name players from recent very good teams. Admittedly these names are cream of the crop, but the best player on a 2nd line on a contending team is a high standard anyway, arguably a very good first-liner on an average team. Anyway, do you think Couts gets anywhere close to that echelon?

I think by saying I did not recall a single great play by Couts made it seem like I was saying he is a 4rth liner on merit, which is not true, of course. I have my doubts about his offensive upside, but lets leave that apart, do you really see him developing into the kind of offensive threat another good team has to game plan for?

Here are his playoff stats since his hat trick. Yes, I know his usage was different in those games and yes, I remember the Neal hit and yes, I know he is very young. But still:

Games: 16
Goals: 0
Assists: 0
+/-: -5

Again: note the standard: carrying the flag for a potential cup winning 2nd line, not just being average, not just being good.
- PT21

I don't know, but I'll leave you with this.

Thankfully I fell asleep midway through the 2nd period. Looks like I didn't miss anything. So, without Couturier, they are 0-3-1, with him they are 4-2-1.

Yeah, he's not a valuable player.


- BiggE

Like what, for example? After following the talking rabbit, drink the first thing that you can find whether or not you know what it is? Or to start eating height-altering mushrooms after the hookah-smoking caterpillar tells you to do so?
- jmatchett383

love you pal, but I do think that engineering-centered brain of yours is leading to a much too literally interpretive mind

Where did the wheel o' scratch land on for tonight? Which defenseman drew the short straw?
- PLindbergh31

Really an impressive effort last night. Captain said so. Don't expect any changes

I think I caused some confusion with my initial statement. To clarify, I had hoped one of those guys, including Couts, to project to be the main guy on a contending team's 2nd line, not necessarily at center though, someone even a good team would have to watch out for as an offensive threat whenever he is on the ice.

The standards are very high: Jeff Carter, Pavel Datsyuk, Tyler Johnson, Bergeron, Patrick Kane, to name players from recent very good teams. Admittedly these names are cream of the crop, but the best player on a 2nd line on a contending team is a high standard anyway, arguably a very good first-liner on an average team. Anyway, do you think Couts gets anywhere close to that echelon?
- PT21

So now he has to be the best player on the 2nd line, not just the 2nd line center? I'm pretty sure 35 year old, 37 point scorer Brad Richards was the 2C on the Cup winning Chicago team last season.

love you pal, but I do think that engineering-centered brain of yours is leading to a much too literally interpretive mind
- stayinthefnnet

Actually, it's the joys of fatherhood, coupled with the crunch and short-staffed job that I have which are quickly making me an angry old man.

win tonight and we are back to .500
- aightwebang17

no, theyre not

So now he has to be the best player on the 2nd line, not just the 2nd line center? I'm pretty sure 35 year old, 37 point scorer Brad Richards was the 2C on the Cup winning Chicago team last season.
- Feanor

Yeah, I had hoped (different from expected) that someone would emerge from Read, Couts, B. Schenn, Simmonds who would provide enough glimpses by now of yes, carrying a very good 2nd line in ES. Its interesting that we struck gold with Voracek from that crop, who was supposed to be an unmotivated project.

If Couts projects to be our version of mid-thirties Brad Richards (who btw had a pretty good playoffs, esp. the last 2 series), then by definition, we are still missing our Kane on that line, unless you believe Schenn/Simmonds/Read/Laughton can fill that role. Do you?

There is a difference between saying someone is not good and not good enough. If the ultimate goal is the cup, do we have our 2nd line stud in our ranks yet?

Actually, it's the joys of fatherhood, coupled with the crunch and short-staffed job that I have which are quickly making me an angry old man.
- jmatchett383

i think you may be underestimating the role the flyers are playing in all this

Actually, it's the joys of fatherhood, coupled with the crunch and short-staffed job that I have which are quickly making me an angry old man.
- jmatchett383

at least you have those legitimate excuses. im just a bitter little puke

Yeah, I had hoped (different from expected) that someone would emerge from Read, Couts, B. Schenn, Simmonds who would provide enough glimpses by now of yes, carrying a very good 2nd line in ES. Its interesting that we struck gold with Voracek from that crop, who was supposed to be an unmotivated project.

If Couts projects to be our version of mid-thirties Brad Richards (who btw had a pretty good playoffs, esp. the last 2 series), then by definition, we are still missing our Kane on that line, unless you believe Schenn/Simmonds/Read/Laughton can fill that role. Do you?

There is a difference between saying someone is not good and not good enough. If the ultimate goal is the cup, do we have our 2nd line stud in our ranks yet?
- PT21

The Kane comparable would be Voracek if him and Giroux could be successfully split up.

Yeah, I had hoped (different from expected) that someone would emerge from Read, Couts, B. Schenn, Simmonds who would provide enough glimpses by now of yes, carrying a very good 2nd line in ES. Its interesting that we struck gold with Voracek from that crop, who was supposed to be an unmotivated project.

If Couts projects to be our version of mid-thirties Brad Richards (who btw had a pretty good playoffs, esp. the last 2 series), then by definition, we are still missing our Kane on that line, unless you believe Schenn/Simmonds/Read/Laughton can fill that role. Do you?

There is a difference between saying someone is not good and not good enough. If the ultimate goal is the cup, do we have our 2nd line stud in our ranks yet?
- PT21

This team is not going to be a cup contender for at least two or three years. It's pretty foolish to write off the chances of guys like BSchenn, Couturier and Simmonds being a quality 2nd line now. Particularly Couturier who has gotten all of six games in his NHL career where he wasn't being used primarily in defensive situations.

I think I caused some confusion with my initial statement. To clarify, I had hoped one of those guys, including Couts, to project to be the main guy on a contending team's 2nd line, not necessarily at center though, someone even a good team would have to watch out for as an offensive threat whenever he is on the ice.

The standards are very high: Jeff Carter, Pavel Datsyuk, Tyler Johnson, Bergeron, Patrick Kane, to name players from recent very good teams. Admittedly these names are cream of the crop, but the best player on a 2nd line on a contending team is a high standard anyway, arguably a very good first-liner on an average team. Anyway, do you think Couts gets anywhere close to that echelon?


- PT21

The problem might very well be the standards you're using. All of those players you named are 1st line players, and among the NHL elite. Those teams are deep enough that they can afford to play a 1st line player on the 2nd line.

I think by saying I did not recall a single great play by Couts made it seem like I was saying he is a 4rth liner on merit, which is not true, of course. I have my doubts about his offensive upside, but lets leave that apart, do you really see him developing into the kind of offensive threat another good team has to game plan for?

Here are his playoff stats since his hat trick. Yes, I know his usage was different in those games and yes, I remember the Neal hit and yes, I know he is very young. But still:

Games: 16
Goals: 0
Assists: 0
+/-: -5

Again: note the standard: carrying the flag for a potential cup winning 2nd line, not just being average, not just being good.
- PT21

I don't need, nor am I looking for Couturier to carry the flag. I'm looking for him to be a solid offensive producer, in the 50 point range, along with his stellar game away from the puck to be a part of a strong 2nd line. I think the Flyers need a highly skilled LW with speed and creativity to provide the right mix.

All I know is in past seasons, when I look at Couturier's ES production, consider his usage, and compare it to other more highly touted offensive players, who play in much better offensive situations, his numbers have been 2nd line worthy.

I don't need, nor am I looking for Couturier to carry the flag. I'm looking for him to be a solid offensive producer, in the 50 point range, along with his stellar game away from the puck to be a part of a strong 2nd line. I think the Flyers need a highly skilled LW with speed and creativity to provide the right mix.

All I know is in past seasons, when I look at Couturier's ES production, consider his usage, and compare it to other more highly touted offensive players, who play in much better offensive situations, his numbers have been 2nd line worthy.
- MJL

It could be that it's a RW named Travis Konecny becomes the offensive sparkplug on the 2nd line in the next few seasons with Simmonds dropping back to the 3rd line (where he's played plenty of times before).

But considering Couturier only got 39.6% OZ starts over his first four seasons it would be nice if we could let him play one season at around 50% before writing off his ability to be a 50 point center.

This team is not going to be a cup contender for at least two or three years. It's pretty foolish to write off the chances of guys like BSchenn, Couturier and Simmonds being a quality 2nd line now. Particularly Couturier who has gotten all of six games in his NHL career where he wasn't being used primarily in defensive situations.
- Feanor

I am not writing anyone off. But for me early returns are discouraging, so I am lowering probabilities...

I'm probably going to get stoned
- SuperSchennBros

With the way this team is playing right now, good idea!!

I am not writing anyone off. But for me early returns are discouraging, so I am lowering probabilities...
- PT21

I think that really depends on what returns are being looked at. Looking at the total picture, I think it's obvious that Couturier has offensive ability, and probably untapped ability.

I think that really depends on what returns are being looked at. Looking at the total picture, I think it's obvious that Couturier has offensive ability, and probably untapped ability.
- MJL

Agreed.

It could be that it's a RW named Travis Konecny becomes the offensive sparkplug on the 2nd line in the next few seasons with Simmonds dropping back to the 3rd line (where he's played plenty of times before).

But considering Couturier only got 39.6% OZ starts over his first four seasons it would be nice if we could let him play one season at around 50% before writing off his ability to be a 50 point center.
- Feanor

The ES point totals he has posted considering his usage and role, for a few seasons are pretty strong.

Miss me yet?

The deal wasn't "Couturier and Schenn" for Weber. There were other players and picks involved. And as much as I am a huge fan of Shea Weber, he's no Chris Pronger, even at 34.
- jmatchett383

about as close to it as you're going to get.[/img]

It could be that it's a RW named Travis Konecny becomes the offensive sparkplug on the 2nd line in the next few seasons with Simmonds dropping back to the 3rd line (where he's played plenty of times before).

But considering Couturier only got 39.6% OZ starts over his first four seasons it would be nice if we could let him play one season at around 50% before writing off his ability to be a 50 point center.
- Feanor

Bottom lined Couturier has not shown merely enough offensively on this team. Stop making excuses.

Bottom lined Couturier has not shown merely enough offensively on this team. Stop making excuses.
- ClaudeFather

Player usage matters breaux.