To wait and see what Lecavalier does after another failed season of poor play, and being a healthy scratch for most of the season.
- MJL

I think giving him a chance to prove he can play somewhere else, since its obvious he doesnt fit here, and having him fail at that would give him more incentive to retire. If I am him and a team just scratches me for an entire season I don't walk away from free money.

I know you are completely convinced he will retire before his deal ends, so I am not trying to start that. If you might retain salary in the offseason there is no reason not to retain it ASAP and move on

The Flyers need to add more speed and skill and offensive catalysts to the roster. They have too many players that can't create for themselves. Simmonds is one of those players. He has been a good goal scorer and player on this team. Play him with the right players, that he can form chemistry with, and he's a 30 goal, 60 point forward.
- MJL

So who do you personally look to trade to get a player like that?

Or are you prepared to wait til next summer to draft a kid two years away from the NHL?

I think you're alone on this one, man.
- BulliesPhan87

Explain how I am! if Columbus traded Hartnell, how does that deal change the outcome of the deal the Flyers made?

The Flyers need to add more speed and skill and offensive catalysts to the roster. They have too many players that can't create for themselves. Simmonds is one of those players. He has been a good goal scorer and player on this team. Play him with the right players, that he can form chemistry with, and he's a 30 goal, 60 point forward.
- MJL

he has never reached 30 goals in his career. 60 once. put anyone with the "right" players and they usually do well. so not going out on a limb with that statement

So who do you personally look to trade to get a player like that?

Or are you prepared to wait til next summer to draft a kid two years away from the NHL?
- hereticpride

I don't look to trade for a player like that. The Flyers are going to have draft and develop players.

Explain how I am! if Columbus traded Hartnell, how does that deal change the outcome of the deal the Flyers made?
- MJL

Example:


- I trade a wooden chair that I no longer needed and was taking up too much space in my house to a guy for shoes that I needed for work


- Guy then trades the wooden chair for two pairs of similar shoes


Again, this is assuming the wooden chair had more trade value than originally thought which seems unlikely since I'm guessing Hextall probably told the whole league that he was available.

Explain how I am! if Columbus traded Hartnell, how does that deal change the outcome of the deal the Flyers made?
- MJL

Now you're moving the goal posts. Before, it was about "how good of trade it was for the Flyers", not how it changes the outcome. If Columbus gets good value for Hartnell, it clearly reflects an inaccurate valuation either of Hartnell, or the return we got for him.

Explain how I am! if Columbus traded Hartnell, how does that deal change the outcome of the deal the Flyers made?
- MJL

the outcome of the flyers deal has already been determined. they got hosed.

Example:


- I trade a wooden chair that I no longer needed and was taking up too much space in my house to a guy for shoes that I needed for work


- Guy then trades the wooden chair for two pairs of similar shoes


Again, this is assuming the wooden chair had more trade value than originally thought which seems unlikely since I'm guessing Hextall probably told the whole league that he was available.
- Nucker101

Just because the other party found some fool willing to pay more doesn't affect the outcome of the deal made previously. I have no control over what someone does after the fact, nor was I ever offered two pairs of shoes for the chair.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Before, it was about "how good of trade it was for the Flyers", not how it changes the outcome. If Columbus gets good value for Hartnell, it clearly reflects an inaccurate valuation either of Hartnell, or the return we got for him.
- BulliesPhan87

One in the same. The only variable left in the deal that the Flyers still control, is what is done with the cap space saved, when Umberger's deal it expires.

Lots of things change in the NHL trade environment that are not in the Flyers control, such as who has interest, injuries, cap space and growth, etc. Some fool GM decides to overpay for Hartnell due to being in a desparate situation, in a deal that wasn't made available to the Flyers when they had Hartnell, is not a factor in determining how good in the end the deal the Flyers made was.

hmm you don't think he fits in?
- 2Real

I'm not completely sure either way. It's possible I think. It's so hard to tell with the garbage he is usually saddled with. IMO Simmonds doesn't fit. He's at a position right now that the Flyers are deep in, not to mention Konecny will be banging down the door for time also most likely next year. I think Hak wants a certain style of forward to employ his forechecking model. Look no further than the minutes he gives the 4th line. Most of those guys have the elements that he wants. None of them have all the elements. Hakstol needs forwards that turn the puck over in the offensive zone. Simmonds and B Schenn don't do it enough. Although they're willing to lay the body, its not as important as being in the right spot at the right time. Ryan White is guy who I think the coach loves but is just lacking in the physical skills. But in his head he gets it and often turns the puck over.

Also if G and Coots are the centers going forward, you need more burst in the lineup. Especially guys that have bursts in their first steps (like Laughton) are going to be critical. Yeah maybe B Schenn and Simmonds. I have them on the outside looking in. Read looks more and more like a fit

Just because the other party found some fool willing to pay more doesn't affect the outcome of the deal made previously. I have no control over what someone does after the fact, nor was I ever offered two pairs of shoes for the chair.
- MJL

You still had 4 years of financing left on the chair. The shoes will be paid off much sooner. These guys left this part out. Cap flexibility has value.

Also the chair doesn't take nearly as many dumb penalties with its new owner!

You still had 4 years of financing left on the chair. The shoes will be paid off much sooner. These guys left this part out. Cap flexibility has value.

Also the chair doesn't take nearly as many dumb penalties with its new owner!
- Richard_wilderness

I thought I did a decent job with the "I no longer had space for the chair in my house" part

I thought I did a decent job with the "I no longer had space for the chair in my house" part
- Nucker101

So that's where you were going with that.

You still had 4 years of financing left on the chair. The shoes will be paid off much sooner. These guys left this part out. Cap flexibility has value.

Also the chair doesn't take nearly as many dumb penalties with its new owner!
- Richard_wilderness

(frank)ing dying

I thought I did a decent job with the "I no longer had space for the chair in my house" part
- Nucker101

That analogy would be better if it was you didn't have space for the chair, a couple of years from now. The initial cap savings was 250K.

One in the same. The only variable left in the deal that the Flyers still control, is what is done with the cap space saved, when Umberger's deal it expires.

Lots of things change in the NHL trade environment that are not in the Flyers control, such as who has interest, injuries, cap space and growth, etc. Some fool GM decides to overpay for Hartnell due to being in a desparate situation, in a deal that wasn't made available to the Flyers when they had Hartnell, is not a factor in determining how good in the end the deal the Flyers made was.
- MJL

explain to me how your going to quantify what they do with this alleged cap space? was some already used for the silly contracts given to jake and shutdown seanie? will some be used to resign schenn?


so just so I am clear, until you see what happens with this "Cap space" savings you cant determine if it was a good deal or not. is that correct?

I think Simmonds fits on the roster. I think it's the pieces around him that don't fit. Every team needs a power forward that can score.
- MJL

Simmonds has played primarily with Couturier, yes? So at some point you either conclude that Simmonds is one-dimensional and is more or less hurting Couturier, or Couturier is not really putting Simmonds in position to succeed.

Simmonds has played primarily with Couturier, yes? So at some point you either conclude that Simmonds is one-dimensional and is more or less hurting Couturier, or Couturier is not really putting Simmonds in position to succeed.
- TheGreat28

Those are the only options?

Just because the other party found some fool willing to pay more doesn't affect the outcome of the deal made previously. I have no control over what someone does after the fact, nor was I ever offered two pairs of shoes for the chair.
- MJL

Exactly. I bet when Hextall took over, he took a long, hard look at the roster and said "Poop. I have a lot of big, long term contracts to deal with and they aren't expiring any time soon (Mcd, Vinny, Hartnell, etc.)" Who on this list is worth a damn in a trade? Who can loosen the future handcuffs now?" Hartnell is still a good player, will he be in 3 years? who knows? But at the time he certainly wasn't moving Vinny or McDonald, realized he had Coots and V and possible BSChenn to resign in a few years, so he made a move to give him a little freedom to operate. Yeah Hartnell would help the team now, but if he's on the team last year, we probably don't draft Provorov or Konecy, both of who I'm pumped to have in the system. You can't rob the other GM in every trade, ala Rinaldo for a 3rd deal. Most trades you have to give to get, and in this one, Hextall saw those last few years of freed up cap space as more valuable than the points Hartnell is contributing now.

explain to me how your going to quantify what they do with this alleged cap space? was some already used for the silly contracts given to jake and shutdown seanie? will some be used to resign schenn?


so just so I am clear, until you see what happens with this "Cap space" savings you cant determine if it was a good deal or not. is that correct?
- rinaldo

Clueless, as always. Put Couturier and Voracek on the block and plenty of teams would be happy to trade for them and their "silly" contracts.

Clueless, as always. Put Couturier and Voracek on the block and plenty of teams would be happy to trade for them and their "silly" contracts.
- Feanor

I wish I was as knowledgeable as you.blow me chief. #14 is overpaid and will be every year under his new contract. 1 great year lets overpay a guy in his contract year. all good Ronnie has a plan.

Those are the only options?
- MJL

Obviously not. But in another 30-40 games, if we're not seeing more offense from Couturier then I'm hoping Hextall has a pretty open mind when planning his roster.

Laughton is apparently going to take a 4th line role once PEB comes back, which is curious. That, plus his playing time or lack thereof, are both interesting to me as well.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Before, it was about "how good of trade it was for the Flyers", not how it changes the outcome. If Columbus gets good value for Hartnell, it clearly reflects an inaccurate valuation either of Hartnell, or the return we got for him.
- BulliesPhan87

You're assuming that Hartnell would have scored as many points on the Flyers as he has in CBJ, but they are different teams. Right now we have six top nine wingers (Read, Voracek, BSchenn, Simmonds, Gagner and Raffl) averaging 5 points per 16 games.

If Hartnell were playing on this team how many points would he have?

You're assuming that Hartnell would have scored as many points on the Flyers as he has in CBJ, but they are different teams. Right now we have six top nine wingers (Read, Voracek, BSchenn, Simmonds, Gagner and Raffl) averaging 5 points per 16 games.

If Hartnell were playing on this team how many points would he have?
- Feanor

your right. hartnell has no history of producing when he was on the flyers. he would be playing with all stiffs.