what a great place

The raw counts tend to be a reflection of the copious amounts of ES ice he sees, though. Break it down by rate and he doesn't exactly fall solidly in 2nd-line production category anymore:



.
- Tomahawk

How does that site break it down? What are the metrics for determining what is a 2nd liner, and what isn't?

Most top scoring players see copious amounts of ES icetime. In situations that Couturier plays in, having as much ES icetime is as much a deterrent, as it is a plus.
Have to look at the entire picture. It doesn't seem as though that graph does that.

The raw counts tend to be a reflection of the copious amounts of ES ice he sees, though. Break it down by rate and he doesn't exactly fall solidly in 2nd-line production category anymore:
- Tomahawk

The chart ignores the impact zone starts, teammates and QoC have on scoring.

And Claude Giroux had 147 minutes (12%) more ES TOI than Couturier, but only had seven more points. Are you also claiming Giroux only puts up points at ES because of massive amounts of ice time?

The raw counts tend to be a reflection of the copious amounts of ES ice he sees, though. Break it down by rate and he doesn't exactly fall solidly in 2nd-line production category anymore:




- Tomahawk

This.

The raw counts tend to be a reflection of the copious amounts of ES ice he sees, though. Break it down by rate and he doesn't exactly fall solidly in 2nd-line production category anymore:
- Tomahawk

This is where the idea that he needs to be better at producing points comes from. He gets a lot of ice time due to his defensive assignments so there is a large portion of time where we get below average point production.

I still think it is largely due to usage, and the problem is actually the Flyers bottom 9. Another line has to step up with either scoring or defensive responsibility. Berube used him almost exclusively as a defensive shutdown center (which accounts for a very significant portion of that HERO chart)

The chart ignores the impact zone starts, teammates and QoC have on scoring.

And Claude Giroux had 147 minutes (12%) more ES TOI than Couturier, but only had seven more points. Are you also claiming Giroux only puts up points at ES because of massive amounts of ice time?
- Feanor

I think we know that G has been struggling to score at ES, too, during that 3-season sample. Almost 50% of his points have come on the PP... so yeah, if he got less ice-time at ES, his ES production wouldn't be entirely 1st-line caliber either:




(but look at that possession-effect he has!)

This.
- wolfhounds

That same chart also has Giroux as a 2C, not a 1C.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/

I'm fine saying Couturier can only be a 3C if we also say Giroux can only be called a 2C.

And you would spell Couturier correctly if you weren't retarded. If you can't even bother to come up with new material, neither will I.

Couturier was also third on the team in ES goals last season. Try doing some research next time you clueless (frank).
- Feanor

If I wrote my name all over my notebook I would spell it correctly too. Guy logs some of the most minutes on the team, he has never hit 20 goals in his career or 40 points. That is terrible.

This is where the idea that he needs to be better at producing points comes from. He gets a lot of ice time due to his defensive assignments so there is a large portion of time where we get below average point production.

I still think it is largely due to usage, and the problem is actually the Flyers bottom 9. Another line has to step up with either scoring or defensive responsibility. Berube used him almost exclusively as a defensive shutdown center (which accounts for a very significant portion of that HERO chart)
- YuenglingJagr

Nah, let's consider all minutes as equal and compare players who play under completely different situations and rank them where they stand. It's like looking at TD's and comparing running backs and linebackers.

If I wrote my name all over my notebook I would spell it correctly too. Guy logs some of the most minutes on the team, he has never hit 20 goals in his career or 40 points. That is terrible.
- ClaudeFather

That's a weak deflection given that you're more obsessed with Couturier than anyone else here.

I think we know that G has been struggling to score at ES, too, during that 3-season sample. Almost 50% of his points have come on the PP... so yeah, if he got less ice-time at ES, his ES production wouldn't be entirely 1st-line caliber either:




(but look at that possession-effect he has!)
- Tomahawk

So if a player played less, he might score less? Ground breaking. Let's just play Sam Gagner more minutes. Maybe we can play him into a top line winger.

And you would spell Couturier correctly if you weren't retarded. If you can't even bother to come up with new material, neither will I.

Couturier was also third on the team in ES goals last season. Try doing some research next time you clueless (frank).
- Feanor

i thought i was having Deja Vu

That same chart also has Giroux as a 2C, not a 1C.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/

I'm fine saying Couturier can only be a 3C if we also say Giroux can only be called a 2C.
- Feanor

Is Couturier an adequate 2nd line center? Yeah, I think he is. Is he a 2C on a championship team? Probably not, though, if you go by icetime, he would be. As a team's top shutdown center, he will likely see more ice time than any other center except the #1 guy. So call him whatever you want, 2C, 3C, etc... He is still an extremely valuable player for any hockey club: a top end shut down center who is excellent on the PK, puts up very good possession numbers and can chip in some offense. I'm pretty sure that if the Flyers were to make Couturier available, nearly every team in the league would be interested.

Nah, let's consider all minutes as equal and compare players who play under completely different situations and rank them where they stand. It's like looking at TD's and comparing running backs and linebackers.
- MJL

No what we should really be looking at is how to solve the problem. If P/60 is what we need. Then we are forgetting who the real HERO this entire time

How unsurprising that someone like you has delusions of grandeur.
- Feanor

Someone like me? How am I delusional? I did play D3 college ice hockey, so I fail to see how that makes me delusional. That's fairly rude, especially considering all I stated was that a back hand saucer pass isn't some amazing feat...maybe you should take off the Couturier tinted glasses once in a while.

Someone like me? How am I delusional? I did play D3 college ice hockey, so I fail to see how that makes me delusional. That's fairly rude, especially considering all I stated was that a back hand saucer pass isn't some amazing feat...maybe you should take off the Couturier tinted glasses once in a while.
- aantny88

What team and what years?

That same chart also has Giroux as a 2C, not a 1C.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/

I'm fine saying Couturier can only be a 3C if we also say Giroux can only be called a 2C.
- Feanor

G drives play like a solid 1st-liner at ES, though. And his overall production is pulled back up by the cascade of points he gets on the PP.

Coots is a good possession player too, but he doesn't really do it through driving play... he does it by forcing a low-event exchange while he's out there against much better players, which is really super valuable.

But calling him a legit 2nd-line ES scorer based on raw counts is misleading.

Someone like me? How am I delusional? I did play D3 college ice hockey, so I fail to see how that makes me delusional. That's fairly rude, especially considering all I stated was that a back hand saucer pass isn't some amazing feat...maybe you should take off the Couturier tinted glasses once in a while.
- aantny88

That was a god like pass...

That same chart also has Giroux as a 2C, not a 1C.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com/

I'm fine saying Couturier can only be a 3C if we also say Giroux can only be called a 2C.
- Feanor

We're not exactly tearing it up the last few seasons, so this isn't all that surprising. And G's ES production (like the team) has been average. Imagine Jake's numbers if he continues at his current pace.

I think part of the problem, aside from defensive woes, is that last season we have some forwards near (or breaking) career highs while other guys were having seasons to forget. This season, nobody is doing much of anything, mostly because our PP is in the tank. We're just not clicking as a team. Things aren't coming together as a whole and it's bringing everybody down.

And for the record, I think Couts is a 2C/3C tweener.

Is Couturier an adequate 2nd line center? Yeah, I think he is. Is he a 2C on a championship team? Probably not, though, if you go by icetime, he would be. As a team's top shutdown center, he will likely see more ice time than any other center except the #1 guy. So call him whatever you want, 2C, 3C, etc... He is still an extremely valuable player for any hockey club: a top end shut down center who is excellent on the PK, puts up very good possession numbers and can chip in some offense. I'm pretty sure that if the Flyers were to make Couturier available, nearly every team in the league would be interested.
- BiggE

should a second line center achieve 40 points?

If Medvedev is healthy, he needs to play. Sit either Schultz or Manning, but get the Russian back in. No one in their right mind can look at the Flyers roster and not see that they could use another player with both speed and skill on D.
- BiggE

I'm not buying what they're selling.

Someone like me? How am I delusional? I did play D3 college ice hockey, so I fail to see how that makes me delusional. That's fairly rude, especially considering all I stated was that a back hand saucer pass isn't some amazing feat...maybe you should take off the Couturier tinted glasses once in a while.
- aantny88

We all know what the response would have been on here if Ghost had made that same pass to Couturier and Couturier had not been able to get it past Quick. If you can't give credit for a strong offensive play maybe it's you who needs to take the tinted glasses off.

Giroux, Ghost and Bellemare all had golden chances in OT to win the game, but they all failed, then Gagner, Giroux and Voracek all failed in the shootout. So of course the response on HB is to blame the loss on Couturier.

I'm not buying what they're selling.
- Scoob

maybe he misses Mother Russia

We all know what the response would have been on here if Ghost had made that same pass to Couturier and Couturier had not been able to get it past Quick. If you can't give credit for a strong offensive play maybe it's you who needs to take the tinted glasses off.

Giroux, Ghost and Bellemare all had golden chances in OT to win the game, but they all failed, then Gagner, Giroux and Voracek all failed in the shootout. So of course the response on HB is to blame the loss on Couturier.
- Feanor

They didn’t deserve to lose that game, I don’t think you could pin it on anyone. I wouldn’t say anyone had a bad game either. I thought it was Mannings best game all year.

G drives play like a solid 1st-liner at ES, though. And his overall production is pulled back up by the cascade of points he gets on the PP.

Coots is a good possession player too, but he doesn't really do it through driving play... he does it by forcing a low-event exchange while he's out there against much better players, which is really super valuable.

But calling him a legit 2nd-line ES scorer based on raw counts is misleading.
- Tomahawk

And calling a Giroux a legit 1st-line ES scorer is misleading by your own standards. So, using those standards, the big question isn't who should we get to replace Couturier as the 2C. It's who should we get to replace the ineffective ES scorer Claude Giroux as the 1C.