So if a player played less, he might score less?
- MJL

Not necessarily... take Craig Berube's favorite hockey player for instance:



Not sure you can do more with 2nd-line ice-time than that.

And calling a Giroux a legit 1st-line ES scorer is misleading by your own standards. So, using those standards, the big question isn't who should we get to replace Couturier as the 2C. It's who should we get to replace the ineffective ES scorer Claude Giroux as the 1C.
- Feanor

I have an answer for that. He's playing in Switzerland

G drives play like a solid 1st-liner at ES, though. And his overall production is pulled back up by the cascade of points he gets on the PP.

Coots is a good possession player too, but he doesn't really do it through driving play... he does it by forcing a low-event exchange while he's out there against much better players, which is really super valuable.

But calling him a legit 2nd-line ES scorer based on raw counts is misleading.
- Tomahawk

Not anymore misleading than the hero chart that you posted.

Here is the deal. I'm not so sure if many realize what they're asking of Couturier. They're asking him to produce much higher point totals, while playing in the situations he plays in. I'm not sure that he can do that, he certainly can't do it alone. How many players in this league can play against top lines as often as he does, with defenseman who aren't adept offensively, and in the situations he does, and can also put up points in the 50-60 point range? Name them?

I have an answer for that. He's playing in Switzerland
- Just5

Would anyone on here complain if these are the centers next season?

Giroux
Matthews
Couturier
Laughton

I sure wouldn't.

Sharks and really skate and pass the puck. I'm expecting an especially rough outing tonight.

Sharks and really skate and pass the puck. I'm expecting an especially rough outing tonight.
- hereticpride

Do they have a weak point? I assume they must given their record.

Not necessarily... take Craig Berube's favorite hockey player for instance:



Not sure you can do more with 2nd-line ice-time than that.
- Tomahawk

Not necessarily is correct. Bergeron may be the best all around forward in hockey. Now tell me, what situations does Bergeron play in, who are his regular linemates and defense pairs that he plays with, and what is his quality of competition.

And I'll say this, I don't believe that Couturier has the talent and ability that Bergeron has.

He was 3rd on the team in ES scoring last season, only 7 points behind the 1st line center Giroux.

Something can't be a fantasy when it has already happened.
- Feanor

that's great he was 3rd on a crap team...like being the tallest midget. means little...he isn't and never will be a #2 center.

Not necessarily... take Craig Berube's favorite hockey player for instance:

Not sure you can do more with 2nd-line ice-time than that.
- Tomahawk

And PP ice time...

Oh and Bergeron is/was also in his prime, but what does that matter

I dont completely disagree with you, but you can't just post a HERO chart and act like it solves anything. Yes, Couturier needs to produce more offensively, but that depends on a lot of factors that are out of his control. In a perfect world he is scoring 60 points, but he is 22, heavily relied on defensively, and is often paired with worthless defensemen.

He's also finished in the top 60 among NHL centers in the past at ES scoring, with comparable ES point totals of more highly regarded offensive players, who undoubtedly play in better situations more conducive to offensive production. There are 30 teams in the league, 4 centers per team. Top 60 is 2nd line production.
- MJL

30-40 points isn't a 2nd line production.

I'll say this, I don't believe that Couturier has the talent and ability that Bergeron has.
- MJL

I don't think so either. People who keep demanding that Sean turn into Bergie need to take a step back and acknowledge just how special that guy is.

30-40 points isn't a 2nd line production.
- rinaldo

It is 2nd line ES production, and Couturier averaged 30 ES points in 13-14 and 14-15.

I'm not sure why you think points scored on the PP should determine what line a forward plays on at ES. Simmonds is great on the PP, but isn't cut out for 1st line minutes.

why does #14 the one who always needs the help. maybe his wingers are saying the same thing, they need help....leave 14 as the 3rd line center and stop this fantasy he will be a good 2nd line center.

he has a role, fills it well, so let him play that role. stop force feeding anything else upon him.
- rinaldo

This is exactly right. Management has generally insisted on trying to force square pegs into round holes and it has backfired time and time again. How many times have we heard "he can play all 3 forward positions" when justifying where to put guys on lines? Yeah, if he is in the NHL I am sure he could theoretically play all 3 positions but that doesn't mean they are good playing there. Jeez, you would hope these professionals running these teams would have more common sense than the average fan.

#14 is an EXCELLENT 3rd line center. Don't force him to be something he isn't. 3C is valuable to a team. Don't pay him like a 2C and certainly don't pressure him to be a 2C. Guess what? If he is good enough to be a productive 2C, the cream will rise to the top.

Same thing with #10. Play him at 2C, if he sucks at it, realize that you have an organizational need to fill and you try to fill it instead of setting these guys up to fail.

30-40 points isn't a 2nd line production.
- rinaldo

http://www.nhl.com/stats/...eType=2&aggregate=0&pos=C

It is 2nd line ES production, and Couturier averaged 30 ES points in 13-14 and 14-15.

I'm not sure why you think points scored on the PP should determine what line a forward plays on at ES.
- Feanor

you think he is a 2nd line center, I don't. on this team is he, very possible as they blow.

Same thing with #10. Play him at 2C, if he sucks at it, realize that you have an organizational need to fill and you try to fill it instead of setting these guys up to fail.
- daddytc

That's a different situation. The management clearly think his game is better suited to the wing.

This is exactly right. Management has generally insisted on trying to force square pegs into round holes and it has backfired time and time again. How many times have we heard "he can play all 3 forward positions" when justifying where to put guys on lines? Yeah, if he is in the NHL I am sure he could theoretically play all 3 positions but that doesn't mean they are good playing there. Jeez, you would hope these professionals running these teams would have more common sense than the average fan.

#14 is an EXCELLENT 3rd line center. Don't force him to be something he isn't. 3C is valuable to a team. Don't pay him like a 2C and certainly don't pressure him to be a 2C. Guess what? If he is good enough to be a productive 2C, the cream will rise to the top.

Same thing with #10. Play him at 2C, if he sucks at it, realize that you have an organizational need to fill and you try to fill it instead of setting these guys up to fail.
- daddytc

Do you believe that there are players who are capable of carrying a team offensively, and are capable of generating offense on their own, and then there are players who aren't capable of that, but need to be part of a line with chemistry that can feed off of each other? In terms of how many players of each type there are in the league, what kind of player is more common?

Would anyone on here complain if these are the centers next season?

Giroux
Matthews
Couturier
Laughton

I sure wouldn't.
- Feanor

Lose for Matthews

This is exactly right. Management has generally insisted on trying to force square pegs into round holes and it has backfired time and time again. How many times have we heard "he can play all 3 forward positions" when justifying where to put guys on lines? Yeah, if he is in the NHL I am sure he could theoretically play all 3 positions but that doesn't mean they are good playing there. Jeez, you would hope these professionals running these teams would have more common sense than the average fan.

#14 is an EXCELLENT 3rd line center. Don't force him to be something he isn't. 3C is valuable to a team. Don't pay him like a 2C and certainly don't pressure him to be a 2C. Guess what? If he is good enough to be a productive 2C, the cream will rise to the top.

Same thing with #10. Play him at 2C, if he sucks at it, realize that you have an organizational need to fill and you try to fill it instead of setting these guys up to fail.
- daddytc

Who should be playing this magical 2C you speak of? Seriously who is better and how does it help us win more hockey games? Just start calling Couturier the 3C if that is what you want so much. It accomplishes nothing. Call him the 3C and then lets all give Laughton tons of poop for how little he scores as the 2C. The fact that Couturier is the teams 2nd best center at the age of 22 is pretty remarkable and people need to stop taking that for granted

No lineup changes. Mason starting and Medvedev still healthy scratched.

I don't think so either. People who keep demanding that Sean turn into Bergie need to take a step back and acknowledge just how special that guy is.
- Tomahawk

That's my point, people are asking Couturier to be a player that is extremely rare in the NHL, based on his role and how he is used, and calling all of that excuses. How can it be an excuse when a player who is actually capable of doing what is being asked is very rare?

Would anyone on here complain if these are the centers next season?

Giroux
Matthews
Couturier
Laughton

I sure wouldn't.
- Feanor

Nope. Complaining would be quite far down on the list of things to do I think.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?reportType=season&report=skatersummary&season=20142015&gameType=2&aggregate=0&pos=C
- MJL

well he is #65, so no that isn't 2nd line production. as you said 120 centers. 1-60 top half....61-120 bottom hal

gagner in less time per game is top 60....guess he is a 2nd line center.

14 also played 82 games. out of 32 players who played 82 games he finished 23 in scoring. look who finished below him, a stellar list.

well he is #65, so no that isn't 2nd line production. as you said 120 centers. 1-60 top half....61-120 bottom hal

gagner in less time per game is top 60....guess he is a 2nd line center.

14 also played 82 games. out of 32 players who played 82 games he finished 23 in scoring. look who finished below him, a stellar list.
- rinaldo

Deflecting. You claimed that 30-40 points isn't 2nd line production.

Would anyone on here complain if these are the centers next season?

Giroux
Matthews
Couturier
Laughton

I sure wouldn't.
- Feanor

Yes. At least 65% by my humble guess would want Matthews as the 1st line center and more production out of Couturier and Laughton traded for help on the wing because White's a better 4th line center.

Just my guess.