Here's food for thought. Maybe Read's and Simmond's struggles over the last year and a quarter are because they're not playing with a playmaker who can bring the best out of them.

It may sound like I'm bashing Couts, and I'm really not trying to. I agree, Konecny plus at least one more highly skilled, goal-scoring winger is desperately needed. But I'm not sure Couts is the guy to maximize their potential either.

Plus, it means Laughton is the third-line guy. Are you reallly going to get enough production out of your centers?
- TheGreat28

One reason I don't buy the struggles of Simmonds or Read being due entirely to playing with Couturier is because they're getting scoring chances. Couturier is dominating possession and generating chances when he is on the ice. Simmonds is playing with a top playmaker on the PP, and he's struggled to score there, too.

I'm not saying one way or another who the issue is, I'm saying that no matter what anyone's pet view is, they need more talent. Lack of offense is a team wide epidemic, and it's not just at 5 on 5.

I don't know if Couturier can be a scoring second line guy. There's evidence that he can, and evidence that he can't. He's still carrying a fairly heavy defensive role, which compounds the issue. Even if he is capable of doing it, the Flyers still need more talent.

Play Couturier with his share of offensive starts, with good offensive players like Jake Voracek, and give him his fair share of time away from checking top lines, and play him with an offensive defenseman that can make plays like Del Zotto, or Gostisbehere, and see what happens. The kid has never been given a legitimate chance at that, his entire career as a Flyer. Yet some want him to put up comparable offensive numbers that players, who play in even better situations that I described on a regular basis.
In the situations that Couturier plays in, with whom, where and who he plays against, there are maybe 5 players in the league, if that, who could put up the points that some want Couturier to put up, playing in that situation.

Before anyone decides that Couturier can't be a good 2nd line center on a top team, how about he actually gets to play like one in a game or two!

I'm certainly not against adding a more dynamic offensive player to the team. In his entire Flyers career, we have not seen this kid placed in an offensive role with top offensive players, but yet at 22 years of age, some are ready to write him off as a 3rd line center because he can't do what pretty much no other player in the NHL can do either.
- MJL

Hasn't he been playing with Simmonds and Read for most of the season. Those guys have been pretty good scorers the last few years. I think he's a fine defensive center. Once again I think this is a situation where the flyers overvalued a guy and gave him too much money and too many years. I'm really not seeing what he brings to the team over a guy like Bellmare[/img]

Coots needs to produce -- pretty simple. His linemates have produced bupkis too. So there's that. Eventually, like one ginger Czech, you have to score, however good you otherwise look...BUT...

I watch Coots as closely as anyone, and he is performing all around better than last year. His minutes have been just as hard; his usage not really all that different from last year. Even if Read and Simmer are not great es scorers, they're an improvement over the hobbled Read and Umberger of a year ago. That line is killing it in possession against other teams' top lines. Just possession wise, against the competition he's facing, Coots is turning into one of the best possession players in the NHL. Better than he's ever done. Though it's a good predictor, possession doesn't always equal points, and there are such things as great possession-ok scoring players, but I'm still a hopeful believer in regression, for which that line and G line are due. He's playing better than ever and scoring less -- that's a disconnect that should be corrected with time.

They're not without red flags as a line: too many missed shots, too conservative a play style, too perimeter based, too dump and chase (Coots is a great entry player who is deferring too much). That's probably because there isn't a truly good scoring winger with speed (I like Matt Read -- but it can't be him) on that line to take advantage of the cycle and space. The last two games Coots has individually put up 9 shots and I believe has led team in high scoring chances. It looks like they're trying to change things. I still think Jake on that line is the answer until the team has another legit top 6 forward.

You have no guarantee they'll cut him
- ob18

if you have read any news about the niners it's pretty much a given he'll be cut

Hasn't he been playing with Simmonds and Read for most of the season. Those guys have pretty good scorers the last few years. I think he's a fine defensive center. Once again I think this is a situation where the flyers overvalued a guy and gave him too much money and too many years. I'm really not seeing what he brings to the team over a guy like Bellmare
- Dkos[/img]

Neither Read or Simmonds are offensive catalysts. Neither are distributors of the puck, who are going to create and make plays. Both are crashers and bangers. Flyers didn't overvalue him. He's drastically undervalued by some fans.

You're not seeing what he brings to the team over a guy like Bellemare, who I'm a fan of, don't get me wrong, but play Bellemare in the situations that the Flyers play Couturier in, and see how that works out. See if Bellemare can carry and control the play, like Couturier can in those situations. See where it gets the Flyers. Good luck

holy hell can the jackets pass
too bad we don't have that skill i think the might jump ahead of us

Play Couturier with his share of offensive starts, with good offensive players like Jake Voracek, and give him his fair share of time away from checking top lines, and play him with an offensive defenseman that can make plays like Del Zotto, or Gostisbehere, and see what happens. The kid has never been given a legitimate chance at that, his entire career as a Flyer. Yet some want him to put up comparable offensive numbers that players, who play in even better situations that I described on a regular basis.
In the situations that Couturier plays in, with whom, where and who he plays against, there are maybe 5 players in the league, if that, who could put up the points that some want Couturier to put up, playing in that situation.

Before anyone decides that Couturier can't be a good 2nd line center on a top team, how about he actually gets to play like one in a game or two!
- MJL

So basically what you are saying his he should be the top line center over Giroux..

Simmonds is a top offensive goal scoring winger on this team over the past few years..

I get it, make him,the first line center and play with Ghost then if he still has only 3 points I'm sure we can find another excuse for,him..

Here are the facts, this season he, Voracek, Raffl,simmonds, read are not producing enough.

Coots needs to produce -- pretty simple. His linemates have produced bupkis too. So there's that. Eventually, like one ginger Czech, you have to score, however good you otherwise look...BUT...

I watch Coots as closely as anyone, and he is performing all around better than last year. His minutes have been just as hard; his usage not really all that different from last year. Even if Read and Simmer are not great es scorers, they're an improvement over the hobbled Read and Umberger of a year ago. That line is killing it in possession against other teams' top lines. Just possession wise, against the competition he's facing, Coots is turning into one of the best possession players in the NHL. Better than he's ever done. Though it's a good predictor, possession doesn't always equal points, and there are such things as great possession-ok scoring players, but I'm still a hopeful believer in regression, for which that line and G line are due. He's playing better than ever and scoring less -- that's a disconnect that should be corrected with time.

They're not without red flags as a line: too many missed shots, too conservative a play style, too perimeter based, too dump and chase (Coots is a great entry player who is deferring too much). That's probably because there isn't a truly good scoring winger with speed (I like Matt Read -- but it can't be him) on that line to take advantage of the cycle and space. The last two games Coots has individually put up 9 shots and I believe has led team in high scoring chances. It looks like they're trying to change things. I still think Jake on that line is the answer until the team has another legit top 6 forward.
- Mononoke

Couturier is dominating play out there, in every area except scoring. I get that the points aren't good enough, and they aren't, but he's not the problem with this team.

Coots needs to produce -- pretty simple. His linemates have produced bupkis too. So there's that. Eventually, like one ginger Czech, you have to score, however good you otherwise look...BUT...

I watch Coots as closely as anyone, and he is performing all around better than last year. His minutes have been just as hard; his usage not really all that different from last year. Even if Read and Simmer are not great es scorers, they're an improvement over the hobbled Read and Umberger of a year ago. That line is killing it in possession against other teams' top lines. Just possession wise, against the competition he's facing, Coots is turning into one of the best possession players in the NHL. Better than he's ever done. Though it's a good predictor, possession doesn't always equal points, and there are such things as great possession-ok scoring players, but I'm still a hopeful believer in regression, for which that line and G line is due. He's playing better than ever and scoring less -- that's a disconnect that should be corrected with time.

They're not without red flags as a line: too many missed shots, too conservative a play style, too perimeter based, too dump and chase (Coots is a great entry player who is deferring too much). That's probably because there isn't a truly good scoring winger with speed (I like Matt Read -- but it can't be him) on that line to take advantage of the cycle and space. The last two games Coots has individually put up 9 shots and I believe has led team in high scoring chances. It looks like they're trying to change things. I still think Jake on that line is the answer until the team has another legit top 6 forward.
- Mononoke

I'm all for that. Get a bit of a tweak up front and see if it lights a fire. It's not as if the Giroux line is scoring in bunches, so you're not risking breaking up a line that's carrying the team. There's literally nothing to lose

I'm all for that. Get a bit of a tweak up front and see if it lights a fire. It's not as if the Giroux line is scoring in bunches, so you're not risking breaking up a line that's carrying the team. There's literally nothing to lose
- Jsaquella

Unless they invented negative goals, there is nothing to lose

So basically what you are saying his he should be the top line center over Giroux..

Simmonds is a top offensive goal scoring winger on this team over the past few years..

I get it, make him,the first line center and play with Ghost then if he still has only 3 points I'm sure we can find another excuse for,him..

Here are the facts, this season he, Voracek, Raffl,simmonds, read are not producing enough.
- opeth_pa

I have no idea how you got from that, that I think Couturier should be the top line center over Giroux. Honestly, I can't fathom how you came to that conclusion.
How about he plays in situations that most 2nd line centers play in?

Who has disagreed that Couturier, Voracek, Raffl, Simmonds, and Read are not producing enough?

The entire team is in an offensive slump.

Neither Read or Simmonds are offensive catalysts. Neither are distributors of the puck, who are going to create and make plays. Both are crashers and bangers. Flyers didn't overvalue him. He's drastically undervalued by some fans.

You're not seeing what he brings to the team over a guy like Bellemare, who I'm a fan of, don't get me wrong, but play Bellemare in the situations that the Flyers play Couturier in, and see how that works out. See if Bellemare can carry and control the play, like Couturier can in those situations. See where it gets the Flyers. Good luck
- MJL

3 points this season. Take off the blinders.

He is not a better player than Giroux,he is not even close to half as talented as Giroux. People wanted him to,get better wingers and since he is not a first line center he got the best players he could on this team yet again it's a refusal to speak any blight on the amazing all star that is Coots.if you are happy with 3 points then great..I want something more from him, Raffl, Voracek and all the players that aren't producing.

Play Couturier with his share of offensive starts, with good offensive players like Jake Voracek, and give him his fair share of time away from checking top lines, and play him with an offensive defenseman that can make plays like Del Zotto, or Gostisbehere, and see what happens. The kid has never been given a legitimate chance at that, his entire career as a Flyer. Yet some want him to put up comparable offensive numbers that players, who play in even better situations that I described on a regular basis.
In the situations that Couturier plays in, with whom, where and who he plays against, there are maybe 5 players in the league, if that, who could put up the points that some want Couturier to put up, playing in that situation.

Before anyone decides that Couturier can't be a good 2nd line center on a top team, how about he actually gets to play like one in a game or two!
- MJL

It's a chicken or the egg situation. I feel like if he showed the potential to bring some offense to the team that they would give him the chance. When Giroux came into the league I remember him playing on the forth line. He wasn't playing with a winger like Jake but he got his points. It was obvious the guy was an offensive talent.

3 points this season. Take off the blinders.

He is not a better player than Giroux,he is not even close to half as talented as Giroux. People wanted him to,get better wingers and since he is not a first line center he got the best players he could on this team yet again it's a refusal to speak any blight on the amazing all star that is Coots.if you are happy with 3 points then great..I want something more from him, Raffl, Voracek and all the players that aren't producing.
- opeth_pa

Two questions. Who has denied that 3 points is good enough and point production is not a problem? Secondly, who has said that he is a better player than Giroux? Honestly, I think there is a reading comprehension issue.

Unless they invented negative goals, there is nothing to lose
- Mononoke

on that same note, what does Medvedev need to do to get back in?

I have no idea how you got from that, that I think Couturier should be the top line center over Giroux. Honestly, I can't fathom how you came to that conclusion.
How about he plays in situations that most 2nd line centers play in?

Who has disagreed that Couturier, Voracek, Raffl, Simmonds, and Read are not producing enough?

The entire team is in an offensive slump.
- MJL

Because I can't imagine what about Couturier you think warrants playing with Voracek over Giroux..

Again as I have said this team will win sooner with Couturier and I look at him as an asset I just don't see it on the second line .

It's a chicken or the egg situation. I feel like if he showed the potential to bring some offense to the team that they would give him the chance. When Giroux came into the league I remember him playing on the forth line. He wasn't playing with a winger like Jake but he got his points. It was obvious the guy was an offensive talent.
- Dkos

Couturier is not Giroux. He has shown the potential already. Here is why he hasn't been placed in better situations. This team, with the way it's been constructed, has very little chance of winning, if they don't use Couturier like this coach, the coach before him, and the coach before that used him. Personally, I'd like to see the matchups put aside on occasion, and put Couturier in some better situations, and with better players, and see what happens.

Because I can't imagine what about Couturier you think warrants playing with Voracek over Giroux..

Again as I have said this team will win sooner with Couturier and I look at him as an asset I just don't see it on the second line .
- opeth_pa

You can't see the reasoning behind splitting up Giroux and Voracek to try and put a playmaker and offensive catalyst on each of the top 2 lines? That doesn't make any sense? Does it make any sense that playing with better offensive players might help Couturier's offensive game?

Is Jonathon Toews Chicago's first line center? Who does Patrick Kane play with at ES?

Two questions. Who has denied that 3 points is good enough and point production is not a problem? Secondly, who has said that he is a better player than Giroux? Honestly, I think there is a reading comprehension issue.
- MJL

Also typing on a phone and have been driving for hours so brain is tired.

I do not think Coutuier should play with Voracek but unlike Couturier I believe you could put Giroux with anyone and he will produce so let's have them go for it

It's 20 games in and 13 for Couturier ..after 50 games of he is scoring at the same pace then it's safe to say it's not working.

Play Couturier with his share of offensive starts, with good offensive players like Jake Voracek, and give him his fair share of time away from checking top lines, and play him with an offensive defenseman that can make plays like Del Zotto, or Gostisbehere, and see what happens. The kid has never been given a legitimate chance at that, his entire career as a Flyer. Yet some want him to put up comparable offensive numbers that players, who play in even better situations that I described on a regular basis.
In the situations that Couturier plays in, with whom, where and who he plays against, there are maybe 5 players in the league, if that, who could put up the points that some want Couturier to put up, playing in that situation.

Before anyone decides that Couturier can't be a good 2nd line center on a top team, how about he actually gets to play like one in a game or two!
- MJL

If they do everything you say....give him offensive starts with Jake and another great offensive winger, take away some of his defensive responsibilities, play him with offensive dman and on the powerplay....maybe he becomes a top center in the league.

Maybe.

But then is the team better off as a whole? Because you also have then taken away the greatest area of contribution he makes to the team.

And, there is opportunity cost as well. Meaning, if you take Jake away from G, then you are hurting G's line. Or another offensive minded center.

At some point, aren't you just forcing a role on him that hurts both the team and Couts because he's just not the man for it?

See, you are calling me (and others) out saying we're not being fair because we expect him to be a big producer AND also a shutdown center.

That's wrong. I'm not asking him to be a big point producer. I'm asking him to be a shutdown center, playing with above average wingers and having a very good offensive showing...for a third line center.

In other words, keep the same line - Read, Simmonds and Couturier - but slot them 3rd with a really good 2nd line and the G line basically as configured, and I think that actually HELPS Couturier because he'd have less pressure and would be within his comfort zone.

You can't see the reasoning behind splitting up Giroux and Voracek to try and put a playmaker and offensive catalyst on each of the top 2 lines? That doesn't make any sense? Does it make any sense that playing with better offensive players might help Couturier's offensive game?

Is Jonathon Toews Chicago's first line center? Who does Patrick Kane play with at ES?
- MJL

Splitting up your skill is great when you have enough skill to split . right now you have 2 high end talents . split them up and it's even easier to shut them down until someone else starts producing.

Also Couturier should not be mentioned with Kane or Toewa and you know that.

on that same note, what does Medvedev need to do to get back in?
- Jsaquella

Send a hooker to Hak's room and get pictures

Because I can't imagine what about Couturier you think warrants playing with Voracek over Giroux..

Again as I have said this team will win sooner with Couturier and I look at him as an asset I just don't see it on the second line .
- opeth_pa

My justification to it would be simple: nobody is scoring, and at some point not making a change is lunacy. Maybe it gets Voracek going. Maybe playing with Giroux gets Simmonds hot. It's not about rewarding Couturier, but simply trying an easy option to get guys going.

Last two seasons 5v5 goals:

Wayne Simmonds: 22

Sean Couturier: 21


The Simmer being held back by Coots narrative doesn't make sense. Simmer just isn't a good ES scorer, and he has been the beneficiary of easy minutes in years past.