Yes, he may be more tightly covered. But using the same argument, I'd argue that Ottawa would prefer him shooting over everyone else while Pittsburgh likely wants its forwards shooting more, making Letang the 4th/5th option, meaning that Karlsson should be attempting shots more often than Letang. The 2 may cancel each other out.
- jmatchett383

Taking it even farther, even with the differences in the numbers used I think all have shown that Letang's play on the powerplay from a shooting stand point ranks and compares right up there with the elite powerplay defenseman in the league.

That's not to suggest that he doesn't have issues on the powerplay that needs addressed or that he's playing well on the powerplay, it's more about dispelling this myth that somehow Letang's shooting is an issue or that it's hindering the powerplay overall.

Here's me problem with the and it's why I think the analytics community hurts their cause, while the data is valid the idea is based off of hand picked portions that suit the agenda. JM twice quickly glances over the fact that the data being used actually shows that Kunitz is actually a very viable option and has been probably the best option to date and one of the charts used to defend the idea of using Plotkinov on Sid's wings actually suggests that using by using that criteria Plots & Porter are the optimal wingers to use with Sid(Yes even better than Perron/Kessel/Hornqvist).

I'm a big fan of using the data available as a variable consider but articles like this are the perfect example of why decisions/opinions can't be formed from the data alone, anyone who has even a basic understanding of the game should understand that Plots' great numbers are a result of playing a role that suits him very well and playing with linemates that compliment each other well, we've already seen that he is completely overwhelmed when playing with the high skill level of the players in the top 6 and again suggesting he is a good option just because you hand-picked a few stats and charts that supported that opinion shows a complete ignorance to the game itself.
- jaydogg1974

Just playing devil's advocate....he was also playing his first games in the NHL and on North American ice. There is definitely a chance that he is improving and not just better as a 4th liner. He was seen as a top 6 option when we signed him.

And again, personally, I think Kunitz and Dupuis have proven ineffective enough. Im open to new ideas and I think Plot is as good of choice as we have for internal options, especially if Sprong gets a shot as Sids RW.

What blockbuster save did Fluery make last night to attribute the game to him?
The Sharks had maybe a handful of threatening chances and the rest of there shots were worthless put it on the net with a prayer shots.

That was a complete game by the whole team and RW come up with that terrible headline to push his analytics are god agenda yet again. The fact that Plotnikov is our top player analytics wise should show you the holes in those metrics, the guy does nothing out there.
- stackthepads

My thoughts exactly. The Penguins were pretty dominant if you actually watched the game.

But advanced stats of course exist as a shortcut to allow people to talk ignorantly about things they don't understand while feigning a superior comprehension through the citation of statistics.

It's pretty pathetic.

Not to sound like the eyeball test only snobs but one area I don't care for analytics is watching Letang on the PP. He's not a scoring threat, hes not good at entering the zone, and he never dishes passes to the wheelhouse. Hes in the bottom half of the league as a PP QB.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

All sound arguments YMAD and even though I don't necessarily agree I think all of those complaints have merit when discussing Letang's play on the powerplay. However, none of that is really relevant to the current conversation which is about the use of the myth that Letang's shooting or inability to shot is effecting the poweplay.

Just playing devil's advocate....he was also playing his first games in the NHL and on North American ice. There is definitely a chance that he is improving and not just better as a 4th liner. He was seen as a top 6 option when we signed him.

And again, personally, I think Kunitz and Dupuis have proven ineffective enough. Im open to new ideas and I think Plot is as good of choice as we have for internal options, especially if Sprong gets a shot as Sids RW.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I wouldn't discount the adjust to the NHL being a factor in his struggles but I would also consider that being in the more comfortable role on the 4th line and playing with players that are better suited for his style of game is why he was able to settle in and look more comfortable. Going beyond the data and using the eyeball test that's exactly what I've seen, a player excelling because of being in a role that is best suited for his game and not a player that will translate to a bigger role well.

As for being viewed as a top 6 winger coming in, just personal opinion but I think that was GMJR trying to fit a square peg into a round hole because he desperately wanted to pair Plots & Geno together.

My thoughts exactly. The Penguins were pretty dominant if you actually watched the game.

But advanced stats of course exist as a shortcut to allow people to talk ignorantly about things they don't understand while feigning a superior comprehension through the citation of statistics.

It's pretty pathetic.
- hardnosed

I watched the game and I never look at fancy graphs. In my opinion it was actually a pretty even game (ignoring the scoreboard) with the Penguins getting a couple of lucky bounces. They were due for some luck.

I wouldn't discount the adjust to the NHL being a factor in his struggles but I would also consider that being in the more comfortable role on the 4th line and playing with players that are better suited for his style of game is why he was able to settle in and look more comfortable. Going beyond the data and using the eyeball test that's exactly what I've seen, a player excelling because of being in a role that is best suited for his game and not a player that will translate to a bigger role well.

As for being viewed as a top 6 winger coming in, just personal opinion but I think that was GMJR trying to fit a square peg into a round hole because he desperately wanted to pair Plots & Geno together.
- jaydogg1974

Similar to the Tyler Kennedy effect. However, if he is generating chances at this level consistently for the next few weeks why not bump him up? At this point who at left wing is that far superior to him to warrant him being kept down.

All sound arguments YMAD and even though I don't necessarily agree I think all of those complaints have merit when discussing Letang's play on the powerplay. However, none of that is really relevant to the current conversation which is about the use of the myth that Letang's shooting or inability to shot is effecting the poweplay.
- jaydogg1974

It is effecting the powerplay. You are right when saying that he is top 5 in shots among defenseman overall, but that drops to 11th when you look at power play shots. Letang has hit the net 17 times on 25 attempts on the Powerplay in 24 games, which means he is averaging 1 shot a game on the Powerplay. That number needs to increase.

My thoughts exactly. The Penguins were pretty dominant if you actually watched the game.

But advanced stats of course exist as a shortcut to allow people to talk ignorantly about things they don't understand while feigning a superior comprehension through the citation of statistics.

It's pretty pathetic.
- hardnosed

I would agree that trying to use advanced stats the way RW and others to be an absolute definitive determination of what happened is a misuse of the information but no more than ignoring the data available. When used properly in conjunction with visual data advanced stats are a great tool that eliminate the bias and inaccuracy from the analysis.

As an example, you suggest that by watched the game you determined the Pens were pretty dominant last night against SJ which is very incorrect, they dominated the scoreboard but were nowhere close to dominating the game overall. On the other side, the advanced stats show that the Sharks dominated the game last night which was also very incorrect. When you use both together you come to the realization that the game was very evenly consisted with both teams having spurts of good play and spurts of bad play that was determined by the Pens getting a little puck luck, the game could have just as easily ended 3-2 Pens or 2-1 SJ.

My thoughts exactly. The Penguins were pretty dominant if you actually watched the game.

But advanced stats of course exist as a shortcut to allow people to talk ignorantly about things they don't understand while feigning a superior comprehension through the citation of statistics.

It's pretty pathetic.
- hardnosed

I watched the game and never once did I think the Pens were dominating the play or controlling the play, dictating tempo. Sharks played well and made the Pens chase in their own end for quite some time. MAF was cool and calm making saves look easy.

To say they were dominant is an overstatement.

It is effecting the powerplay. You are right when saying that he is top 5 in shots among defenseman overall, but that drops to 11th when you look at power play shots. Letang has hit the net 17 times on 25 attempts on the Powerplay in 24 games, which means he is averaging 1 shot a game on the Powerplay. That number needs to increase.
- cap1681

Alright fine, you twisted my arm: we'll give you guys Michael Del Zotto for Kris Letang to help get rid of him.

And we'll give you Matt Read for that underperforming, overpaid scrub Crosby, too. Maybe we'll find a winger or two that he can play with.

I watched the game and never once did I think the Pens were dominating the play or controlling the play, dictating tempo. Sharks played well and made the Pens chase in their own end for quite some time. MAF was cool and calm making saves look easy.

To say they were dominant is an overstatement.
- sammy87

The Pens dominated the majority of the play in the first period, absent one or two sequences from the Sharks. Didn't watch the third period ... Looked like we were playing very well before SJ scored ... after that, it was SJ that controlled the play the rest of the second.

I will say from what I watched, we dictated the play more than them.

It is effecting the powerplay. You are right when saying that he is top 5 in shots among defenseman overall, but that drops to 11th when you look at power play shots. Letang has hit the net 17 times on 25 attempts on the Powerplay in 24 games, which means he is averaging 1 shot a game on the Powerplay. That number needs to increase.
- cap1681

Who are you comparing that to suggesting that he needs more volume? Looking at his total shot attempts(on-goal+missed+blocked) he has attempted 26 shots on the poweplay, comparing that to some of the perceived top powerplay defenseman Burns has attempted 35, Subban 39, Yandle 23, Karlsson 31 and Doughty is at a whooping 23 so he's really not far off. So even looking at total shot attempts he still sits right in the same vicinity as the elite defenseman in the league so expecting much more is really setting an unrealistic expectation. So even looking at total shot volume as a flaw is nothing more than trying to create a problem that doesn't exist as rational for something you want to be true.

Sprong is the key. They trust him in a bottom six role right now. If they think he can play up and down the lineup enough at some point to pull the trigger on a defender trade, this team could see some drastic improvements.
The Plotnikov Beaunino line was awesome. I wouldn't mind see the return of that.
- usethe1-2-2

Beauninokov?

Who are you comparing that to suggesting that he needs more volume? Looking at his total shot attempts(on-goal+missed+blocked) he has attempted 26 shots on the poweplay, comparing that to some of the perceived top powerplay defenseman Burns has attempted 35, Subban 39, Yandle 23, Karlsson 31 and Doughty is at a whooping 23 so he's really not far off. So even looking at total shot attempts he still sits right in the same vicinity as the elite defenseman in the league so expecting much more is really setting an unrealistic expectation. So even looking at total shot volume as a flaw is nothing more than trying to create a problem that doesn't exist as rational for something you want to be true.
- jaydogg1974

Sounds like a total bust to me. I say trade him for a 6th while you can.

My thoughts exactly. The Penguins were pretty dominant if you actually watched the game.

But advanced stats of course exist as a shortcut to allow people to talk ignorantly about things they don't understand while feigning a superior comprehension through the citation of statistics.

It's pretty pathetic.
- hardnosed

Dominant is a strong word. We handled the Sharks, but there was definitely good back and forth during the first and the second before I passed out. The Sharks had several possessions where they were able to cycle at will and get some really good scoring chances and there were a few too many net-front scrums for my taste that resulted from the sharks generating a good offensive sequence. An obvious instance that this comes to mind is Tommy Wingle's disallowed goal. It probably should have been disallowed due to a glove pass, but the contact wasn't enough for a goalie interference. Either way, if the refs call that differently, its 3-2 and its a completely different game momentum wise.

Like I said, Fleury stood tall. He may not have made post to post sprawling saves but he definitely stonewalled very good chances all night long. He also did make some quietly high light reel worthy saves during some of those scrums when he made some last-ditch kick saves while sprawled out on the ground to prevent a goal. Those aren't automatic saves and he did it at least three times. He didn't steal us the game last night because our offense was actually on point besides the Crosby line, but he was a big factor.

Lmao Scuderi really is top 50 for ASG voting. Does he not get the hint that he should "medically retire" yet?

Edit: He's #41

Lmao Scuderi really is top 50 for ASG voting. Does he not get the hint that he should "medically retire" yet?
- Pens_Burgh

Why because the fans dislike him and insist on improperly analyzing him game through biased perspectives?

Sounds like a total bust to me. I say trade him for a 6th while you can.
- jmatchett383

Really? Just sounded to me like another fan just parroting something he heard someone else say because he wanted to sound smart even though he didn't really understand what he was watching.

Off topic (a bit), but not off topic for any hockey discussion these days; I'm not either a huge advocate for or against advanced stats. I feel they have their place, but are not an end all. If they were we wouldn't have new, and improved, advanced metrics coming out every year.

That said, if the Malkin line was a negative possession line last night I'd say that high skill set can offset possession (the way analytics measures them) at any time. The 2009 Pens were a perfect example. Of course, the response would be "high skill leads to more shots and hence, better possession.). But we've seen over and over again lower skilled players firing more shots/60 while high end players, many times, will make the more difficult play. For this I point to Tyler Kennedy. Never saw a shoot he didn't like, but would have been better passing on many of them.

My other question is this: do any of the possession stats now track zone time? Their are plenty of good bottom pairing guys that are asked, don't choose to, but are asked to get behind the net and cycle to wear down the other team. That's usually a 4th line requisite. However, that doesn't always lead to shots, but may lead to other lines getting more chances.

Oh well. I'm done.

Lmao Scuderi really is top 50 for ASG voting. Does he not get the hint that he should "medically retire" yet?

Edit: He's #41
- Pens_Burgh

he is 7th between defensemen in the league, 12th in the whole metro

Why because the fans dislike him and insist on improperly analyzing him game through biased perspectives?
- jaydogg1974

The eye test and advanced stats are black and white man.

he is 7th between defensemen in the league, 12th in the whole metro
- martox

I love it

We will give you Weber for Malkin or Crosby. Preferably Malkin, saves ya 2 million in Cap space too!

We will give you Weber for Malkin or Crosby. Preferably Malkin, saves ya 2 million in Cap space too!
- jl639s

Weber + Forsberg + Jones

for

Malkin + Pouliot

Deal