So generating shots is now a bad thing?
- Nucker101

Absolutely not!

But merely stating that a player who has more shots is somehow more skilled then the player who has more goals is asinine.

How many players, take the same low percentage shots from the same poopty positions? Remind you of anyone on the Canucks?

Christ you are selective in your engagements.
Perhaps you ought to go worship Hextalls' extremely well managed 15-15-7 Flyers.

3. If all things are equal, but not when you're giving up things like skill so you can have an 18 year old with "talents" that are even less likely to translate to the NHL than puck skills. Brayden Schenn was a junior player with those attributes and they sure haven't manifested into him being anything more than a middle 6 forward
- Lindenis#1

Your other staff plays in here too. Developing young players properly has become its own piece of an organization. I wonder if it is why some are a bust on some teams and others pan out elsewhere.... could be a factor.

While i agree that Jake's hockey I.Q is lacking, he does posses skill in regards to stick handling, skating (not just speed and acceleration but also moving and protecting the puck) and shooting.

It's as if the Anti-Benning brigade is painting Virtanen as a neanderthal on skates when in actuality, he was coveted by most scouts and described as a safe top 10 pick precisely due to his goal scoring ability...
- Delta-Bravo

I haven't seen even average NHL ability from JV in passing/stickhandling. He's a north-south up and down the wing shooter, very similar style to David Booth, Chris Kreider, etc. Pre-concussion David Booth and current Chris Kreider is his ceiling if you want to be realistic. Until he produces in the NHL, it's a stretch to call him a "safe" prospect. Since it takes more than just being physically gifted to be a quality NHL'er.

Absolutely not!

But merely stating that a player who has more shots is somehow more skilled then the player who has more goals is asinine.

How many players, take the same low percentage shots from the same poopty positions? Remind you of anyone on the Canucks?

Christ you are selective in your engagements.
Perhaps you ought to go worship Hextalls' extremely well managed 15-15-7 Flyers.
- Delta-Bravo

This is assuming that Ehlers, a highly talented player who's shown the ability in Junior to get the puck into high danger areas, has changed his game and is shooting from the perimeter and goal line now.

I agree here. JB has done a good job. I think some contracts are a bit inflated but otherwise Im happy with him.

Coaches on the other hand....
- SMBDragon

The coaches he hired.

More than a few contracts are inflated. Luca Sbisa is your run of the mill 5-6th dman and he makes top 4 money. Derek Dorsett makes 2.6 to be a "good guy" and watch other teams run over his stars, his goal tenders and kids. Matt "Top Four defenceman in Boston" Bartkowski. Waste a good asset in Corrado for nothing. Bidding against himself to sign Ryan Miller. "I could have traded Ryan Miller and kept the better, younger cheaper goaltender but I didn't".

I like Sutter but not for a 2nd, Clendening and Bonino when he didn't have a contract. Vrbata was a good signing. Maybe Sautner can become a bottom pairing defenceman. I'm actually pretty okay with the Vey and Baertschi trades.

Your other staff plays in here too. Developing young players properly has become its own piece of an organization. I wonder if it is why some are a bust on some teams and others pan out elsewhere.... could be a factor.
- SMBDragon

I like Travis Green and now that he doesn't have his AHL vets to rely on (Conacher, O'Reilly) I like him even more that he is forced to put guys like Gaunce and Shinkaruk into prominent roles. That's what good management can do to a coach. Take away his broken toys so he's forced to use the good ones you have a better investment in. Just would love to stop seeing Dorsett and Prust rake in huge 5on5 minutes.

I despise Ron Delorme as head scout when the Canucks either have, or are bottom three, in draft record since he took the job. The only teams below the Canucks in terms of prospects becoming anything is the post-Crosby draft Penguins and the Coyotes.

The coaches he hired.

More than a few contracts are inflated. Luca Sbisa is your run of the mill 5-6th dman and he makes top 4 money. Derek Dorsett makes 2.6 to be a "good guy" and watch other teams run over his stars, his goal tenders and kids. Matt "Top Four defenceman in Boston" Bartkowski. Waste a good asset in Corrado for nothing. Bidding against himself to sign Ryan Miller. "I could have traded Ryan Miller and kept the better, younger cheaper goaltender but I didn't".

I like Sutter but not for a 2nd, Clendening and Bonino when he didn't have a contract. Vrbata was a good signing. Maybe Sautner can become a bottom pairing defenceman. I'm actually pretty okay with the Vey and Baertschi trades.
- Lindenis#1

I haven't seen even average NHL ability from JV in passing/stickhandling. He's a north-south up and down the wing shooter, very similar style to David Booth, Chris Kreider, etc. Pre-concussion David Booth and current Chris Kreider is his ceiling if you want to be realistic. Until he produces in the NHL, it's a stretch to call him a "safe" prospect. Since it takes more than just being physically gifted to be a quality NHL'er.
- Nucker101

The only thing that makes JV a safe prospect is his skating ability and the fact he isn't 5'9. Its why Lauri Korpokoski and Rob Klinkhammer still play in the NHL. Its why it took ages for teams to stop playing Ben Eager. Its why Rich Clune got a contract.

I'm convinced a lot of management teams look at select skills of a player and come to their own conclusions on whether the player is good or not versus track record and game tape. Its the only reason why you have a defence like you do in Edmonton. Its the only reason why Bartkowski got so many minutes in the top four. Its why for ages the Canucks thought Kassian was Wendel Clark.

I haven't seen even average NHL ability from JV in passing/stickhandling. He's a north-south up and down the wing shooter, very similar style to David Booth, Chris Kreider, etc. Pre-concussion David Booth and current Chris Kreider is his ceiling if you want to be realistic. Until he produces in the NHL, it's a stretch to call him a "safe" prospect. Since it takes more than just being physically gifted to be a quality NHL'er.
- Nucker101

Perhaps.

But lets consider the meaning of a "safe" prospect.

Let's assume, pre-draft, that neither Ehlers or Virtanen's skill game would translate to the nhl level.

Which of the two would still hold even a remote capability of playing in the NHL.
I can understand people's disappointment in the pick, but when in the hell did it become a "bad" thing to select a guaranteed NHL level player in the draft?

This is assuming that Ehlers, a highly talented player who's shown the ability in Junior to get the puck into high danger areas, has changed his game and is shooting from the perimeter and goal line now.
- Lindenis#1

Yes, in junior.

And, did Virtanen not demonstrate the same thing in junior?

Perhaps.

But lets consider the meaning of a "safe" prospect.

Let's assume, pre-draft, that neither Ehlers or Virtanen's skill game would translate to the nhl level.

Which of the two would still hold even a remote capability of playing in the NHL.
I can understand people's disappointment in the pick, but when in the hell did it become a "bad" thing to select a guaranteed NHL level player in the draft?
- Delta-Bravo

because you're drafting 6th overall.

Would you rather have had Luke Schenn or Tyler Myers? Neither player is amazing, but Myers is a borderline top 4 and Schenn blows.

To me, it's just a fundamental disagreement with Benning's line of thinking. If you have a bottom 10 prospect pool coming into a draft then going BPA makes the most sense, it's not like the Canucks are loaded with bluechip prospects at any certain position. The NHL draft is already hard enough to accurately gauge anyway, why bypass the BPA for a need on your current team? Especially since most prospects take 3+ years to make a significant impact and it's crucial that the pick turns out to be a core player.

And I'd never use a high pick on a player with questionable hockey sense, that alone limits his upside, how many legit 1st line players have below average hockey sense(NHL-wise?)

The coaches he hired.

More than a few contracts are inflated. Luca Sbisa is your run of the mill 5-6th dman and he makes top 4 money. Derek Dorsett makes 2.6 to be a "good guy" and watch other teams run over his stars, his goal tenders and kids. Matt "Top Four defenceman in Boston" Bartkowski. Waste a good asset in Corrado for nothing. Bidding against himself to sign Ryan Miller. "I could have traded Ryan Miller and kept the better, younger cheaper goaltender but I didn't".

I like Sutter but not for a 2nd, Clendening and Bonino when he didn't have a contract. Vrbata was a good signing. Maybe Sautner can become a bottom pairing defenceman. I'm actually pretty okay with the Vey and Baertschi trades.
- Lindenis#1

You are focusing on negatives....theres lot of positives to JB. The coaches I want gone are Lidster, the video guy and the coach in the stands which I believe is pearn. They were brought in by WD not JB.

sutter trade was good...necessary and improved the team.
corrado wasnt worth much. bartkowski is decent and improved our zone clearance which we had massive trouble with.

Yes, in junior.

And, did Virtanen not demonstrate the same thing in junior?
- Delta-Bravo

Not to the same capacity.

Virtanens draft+1 season was average at best. He didn't generate shots at the same rate, his goals fell in half and he wasn't exactly driving the bus on offence.

And in his draft year he rode shotgun with a pair of 20year olds on a team with an insane PDO. Surprise, those players are gone the next year and he's not nearly as impressive.

I'm convinced a lot of management teams look at select skills of a player and come to their own conclusions on whether the player is good or not versus track record and game tape.
- Lindenis#1

stats do not speak of the intangibles however. Sometimes stats are not clear.

and it depends if teams are actually doing video and not just playing space invaders and collecting a paycheque. this appears to be the canucks case....ANYONE watching games has to come to the conclusion theres changes to be made....yet none seem to come.

You are focusing on negatives....theres lot of positives to JB. The coaches I want gone are Lidster, the video guy and the coach in the stands which I believe is pearn. They were brought in by WD not JB.

sutter trade was good...necessary and improved the team.
corrado wasnt worth much. bartkowski is decent and improved our zone clearance which we had massive trouble with.
- SMBDragon

Corrado didn't have to be worth much. He didn't have to lose him for nothing period, but he did because reasons I suppose.

Bartkowski skates the puck out, panics immediately after the blueline and turns it over, puck is back in the zone. And he gets abused 1v1

because you're drafting 6th overall.

Would you rather have had Luke Schenn or Tyler Myers? Neither player is amazing, but Myers is a borderline top 4 and Schenn blows.
- Lindenis#1

Yes, but you are using the benefit of hindsight!

Alright, let's look at someone who went before Virtanen. Someone you and Nucker would likely be happier with.

M.D.C didn't make the NHL right out of the draft, was ultimately cut from Team Canada and has so far, but up 25 points in 30 OHL games.

Does that lack of development automatically mean he's a bust?

To me, it's just a fundamental disagreement with Benning's line of thinking. If you have a bottom 10 prospect pool coming into a draft then going BPA makes the most sense, it's not like the Canucks are loaded with bluechip prospects at any certain position. The NHL draft is already hard enough to accurately gauge anyway, why bypass the BPA for a need on your current team? Especially since most prospects take 3+ years to make a significant impact and it's crucial that the pick turns out to be a core player.

And I'd never use a high pick on a player with questionable hockey sense, that alone limits his upside, how many legit 1st line players have below average hockey sense(NHL-wise?)
- Nucker101

None because you can't be more than a middle sixer without it.

You are focusing on negatives....theres lot of positives to JB. The coaches I want gone are Lidster, the video guy and the coach in the stands which I believe is pearn. They were brought in by WD not JB.

sutter trade was good...necessary and improved the team.
corrado wasnt worth much. bartkowski is decent and improved our zone clearance which we had massive trouble with.
- SMBDragon

Bartkowski is a classic case of a guy who looks good to the average fan, but he's constantly out of position and does a horrible job at boxing out and tying up his man in front of the net. He skates fast, can move the puck out of he zone, sticks up for his teammates and works hard but he should be a 6/7 dman on a good team because he needs to be sheltered with easy minutes or gets exposed

Sutter I'll admit looks to be an upgrade on Bonino. But the Miller/Sbisa deals still are atrocious, Dorsett as well is overpaid.


Agree with you on WD, I like that the team plays hard for him but he's in over his head with line matching, lineup decisions, ice time management. Hartley schooled him in the playoffs.

Yes, in junior.

And, did Virtanen not demonstrate the same thing in junior?
- Delta-Bravo

He did. I watched Virtanen his whole WHL career especially vs the Rebels here and he progressed well with every passing season. Even in his final injured year numbers were progressively good. He will be fine in Van it will just take 3-4 years and two of those will most likely be in Utica. Which is fine.

Ehlers is much like McCann where they are both developing a bit quicker than JV but the skill set is so different. Ehlers and McCann were drafted to fill certain needs as was JV. All players will be impact guys it's just the times frames will be different.

Yes, but you are using the benefit of hindsight!

Alright, let's look at someone who went before Virtanen. Someone you and Nucker would likely be happier with.

M.D.C didn't make the NHL right out of the draft, was ultimately cut from Team Canada and has so far, but up 25 points in 30 OHL games.

Does that lack of development automatically mean he's a bust?
- Delta-Bravo

Its not hindsight. Schenn was drafted largely on his NHL ready physical attributes. Myers was considered further away.

MDC was in a similar situation to Virtanen. Playing with older OHL players and putting up numbers. They graduate and he can't carry the load.

Yes, but you are using the benefit of hindsight!

Alright, let's look at someone who went before Virtanen. Someone you and Nucker would likely be happier with.

M.D.C didn't make the NHL right out of the draft, was ultimately cut from Team Canada and has so far, but up 25 points in 30 OHL games.

Does that lack of development automatically mean he's a bust?
- Delta-Bravo

He's trending toward bust territory for sure, but it's still too early to completely write him off.

Not to the same capacity.

Virtanens draft+1 season was average at best. He didn't generate shots at the same rate, his goals fell in half and he wasn't exactly driving the bus on offence.

And in his draft year he rode shotgun with a pair of 20year olds on a team with an insane PDO. Surprise, those players are gone the next year and he's not nearly as impressive.
- Lindenis#1

Sure, but he also returned from surgery which also resulted in him missing a quarter of the season.

Bartkowski is a classic case of a guy who looks good to the average fan, but he's constantly out of position and does a horrible job at boxing out and tying up his man in front of the net. He skates fast, can move the puck out of he zone, sticks up for his teammates and works hard but he should be a 6/7 dman on a good team because he needs to be sheltered with easy minutes or gets exposed

Sutter I'll admit looks to be an upgrade on Bonino. But the Miller/Sbisa deals still are atrocious, Dorsett as well is overpaid.


Agree with you on WD, I like that the team plays hard for him but he's in over his head with line matching, lineup decisions, ice time management. Hartley schooled him in the playoffs.
- Nucker101

I can't stand WD's coaching tactics.

15 seconds left on the PP with an offensive zone draw in a tie game. Puts Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett on the ice.

His line usage in the playoffs was egregious.

Regularly comes out of TV timeouts and icings in the offensize and neutral zones with non-Sedin's on the ice in favour of his muckers. That isn't putting players in the best opportunities to succeed which is the entire point of a coach

Agree with you on WD, I like that the team plays hard for him but he's in over his head with line matching, lineup decisions, ice time management. Hartley schooled him in the playoffs.
- Nucker101

ya...badly.