This was my entire point about the Kane trade too.

Acting like Kane was the only under 25 forward to ever be on the block was ludicrous.

Look, a 20 year old former 3rd overall pick is available, and we have little to offer
- sbroads24

Cmon Broads. You're ignoring a lot of guys saying we do t have any prospects, and you're ignoring at least two other major acquisitions in suggesting all our picks and prospects went in the Kane deal.

You're better than this.

Cmon Broads. You're ignoring a lot of guys saying we do t have any prospects, and you're ignoring at least two other major acquisitions in suggesting all our picks and prospects went in the Kane deal.

You're better than this.
- Der Kaiser

I'm not ignoring it. That's correct, it's a collective effort.

I think Colin White might peak TB's interest for Drouin, or Zadorov.

Point is, we now don't have that luxury anymore.

Justin Bailey doesn't do it.

I think it would be close since they can't take cap back, trying to get Stamkos under contract for next year and then Hedman year after that.

Drouin has lots of potential but even their own fan base are saying the same thing about him, plays small for being that small, not great defensively, needs a change of scenery, suppose to be a Top 6 Winger but hasn't played like one. Shows flashes of offensive skill but hasn't put it all together

Hes current stock is down, and if a team is paying for his potential then thats a very dangerous game to play
- DDM-Coga

His stock is down, and looks like it will continue to drop which is why you pay for his potential now if the price is right. I am sure that yzerman is a better GM than garth snow, but neidereitter garnered a 25 year old RFA and a 3rd round pick.

I could be wrong, its just my outlook on the situation but i would be out on the convo as soon as it moved to the first rd pick. Unless we pick up a late one at the deadline somehow.

Lemieux and 1st would probably have gotten the deal done, the Tampa fans on here know they wont get a haul for him but a good pick and high prospect is the return they see for him based on what he has done to date
- DDM-Coga

If that's really all it takes than the sabres will be in on it, and can still probably something of similar value. Still, with so many teams interested i think the price will still be fairly high.

His stock is down, and looks like it will continue to drop which is why you pay for his potential now if the price is right. I am sure that yzerman is a better GM than garth snow, but neidereitter garnered a 25 year old RFA and a 3rd round pick.

I could be wrong, its just my outlook on the situation but i would be out on the convo as soon as it moved to the first rd pick. Unless we pick up a late one at the deadline somehow.
- ieetbred

Yzerman's only negotiating power at this point is (a) intransigence and (b) other people's interest. Intransigence gets him nothing. It's an auction at this point.

Would we offer Ennis?

Yzerman's only negotiating power at this point is (a) intransigence and (b) other people's interest. Intransigence gets him nothing. It's an auction at this point.

Would we offer Ennis?
- Der Kaiser

They would probably ask for Girgensons.

Yzerman's only negotiating power at this point is (a) intransigence and (b) other people's interest. Intransigence gets him nothing. It's an auction at this point.

Would we offer Ennis?
- Der Kaiser

Yes, but if so, not much else. I don't think Drouin is an upgrade over Ennis right now. If he is, it's not by much.

Foligno, 2016 second round pick, 2017 first round pick, for Druin, that would be my take it or leave it offer to Yzerman.

Foligno, 2016 second round pick, 2017 first round pick, for Druin, that would be my take it or leave it offer to Yzerman.
- sskkoo1

It's not like Drouin's been so bad that you could give him that kind of offer.

It's not like Drouin's been so bad that you could give him that kind of offer.
- Sabresfan-365

Not saying he's been horrible in anyway, but he's not shown very much on a highly talented Tampa offense either. Right now I think trading for him is sort of a gamble and my offer would reflect that, I also think Tampa is caught by the short hairs given Druin's agents announcement.

It's not like Drouin's been so bad that you could give him that kind of offer.
- Sabresfan-365

A roster player, 2nd rounder and next years 1st sounds alright. I dont know why a GM would break the bank for a player who cant make the lineup of a deep team.

They would probably ask for Girgensons.
- sbroads24

Would you do it?

A roster player, 2nd rounder and next years 1st sounds alright. I dont know why a GM would break the bank for a player who cant make the lineup of a deep team.
- ieetbred

I think the idea here is he should have made the team and that they've mismanaged him.

You break the bank because the upside is in theory very, very good. Although in this case I don't think you have to break the bank, you just can't offer up foligno and non 1st round picks and expect the discussion to go anywhere, unless it turns into a niederreiter situation.

Not saying he's been horrible in anyway, but he's not shown very much on a highly talented Tampa offense either. Right now I think trading for him is sort of a gamble and my offer would reflect that, I also think Tampa is caught by the short hairs given Druin's agents announcement.
- sskkoo1

But that offer doesn't represent risk on both sides, the risk is entirely on tampa because even if he is a bust, all we've given up are mid to low level assets. But if he reaches anything close to his potential they look incredibly foolish.

Edit: Should note im assuming that the team gets significantly better in 2017

Would you do it?
- ieetbred

No

I think the idea here is he should have made the team and that they've mismanaged him.

You break the bank because the upside is in theory very, very good. Although in this case I don't think you have to break the bank, you just can't offer up foligno and non 1st round picks and expect the discussion to go anywhere, unless it turns into a niederreiter situation.
- Sabresfan-365

I guess if we were a little higher in the standings it make more sense to discuss our first this season. The roster player doesnt have to be foligno, but the first round pick cant be a potential top 5 for me.

Considering the agents statement, id think GMs will sit on this for awhile and see how it plays out. It may not ever get to niedereiter levels of difference but its why i dont think you start tossing top prospects and your first rd picks out there for him.

No
- sbroads24

Common ground

But that offer doesn't represent risk on both sides, the risk is entirely on tampa because even if he is a bust, all we've given up are mid to low level assets. But if he reaches anything close to his potential they look incredibly foolish.

Edit: Should not im assuming that the team gets significantly better in 2017
- Sabresfan-365

I have to disagree, Druin reaching his potential has taken a real hit since he's been drafted regardless of whether or not he's been mismanaged. Grigorenko had tremendous talent and at one point was ranked 3rd by scouting, but in the end we sold him considerably low, Tampa right now is in the same boat. As for the return assets being low, I agree with Foligno and the 2nd be low assets, but our 2017 still may be a lottery pick and that's a gamble on us giving it away.

I have to disagree, Druin reaching his potential has taken a real hit since he's been drafted regardless of whether or not he's been mismanaged. Grigorenko had tremendous talent and at one point was ranked 3rd by scouting, but in the end we sold him considerably low, Tampa right now is in the same boat. As for the return assets being low, I agree with Foligno and the 2nd be low assets, but our 2017 still may be a lottery pick and that's a gamble on us giving it away.
- sskkoo1

He's the same age as Zadorov and actually has scored at a top 6 rate in the NHL.

I wouldn't give up a ton, but he hasn't been a bust yet either

He's the same age as Zadorov and actually has scored at a top 6 rate in the NHL.

I wouldn't give up a ton, but he hasn't been a bust yet either
- sbroads24

I don't consider him a bust at all, yet, but time will tell. I'm just simply stated that right now his stock has taken a hit and with him publicly asking to be moved, it's a buyers market on him. I agree that we don't have the assets not should we throw the kitchen sink at him, and that's why I think a decent bottom 6 roster player, a second, and a first is a fair offer, at least fair enough to seriously start talks.

I'm not ignoring it. That's correct, it's a collective effort.

I think Colin White might peak TB's interest for Drouin, or Zadorov.

Point is, we now don't have that luxury anymore.

Justin Bailey doesn't do it.
- sbroads24

I'm going to take the pieces one by one, and see if I can't understand this fully. Murray made four major trades I see as the subject of the hate posts in these threads.

1. ROR/McGinn for Grigo/Zads/Compher/2016#31 (Jeremy Roy)
I think the consensus on this trade is Buffalo win. If there's a question, I haven't heard much about it.

2. Kane/Bogo/Kasdorf for Myers/Stafford/Armia/Lemieux/2015#25 (Jack Roslovic)
I think in most people's minds, this trade is close to a draw. Bogo and Kane are both under contract. Stafford was UFA, and the "potential" aspect of the deal is yet to be realized by either team. Hard to call a winner or a loser.

3. Lehner/Legwand for 2015#21 (Colin White)
This is the one everybody blows up, but I really don't get it. I think the frequent complaint is that Lehner hasn't finished a single game in the NHL since the trade, but Colin White hasn't either. He may be great, but today Jonathan Drouin, a #3 overall, is still playing in the NHL, and Broads tells us all the time and Kane and Bogo are both busts, so why is the uncertainty over Lehner any more unsettling than the uncertainty around a #21? And Legwand is giving us games in the NHL, if nothing else.

4. DLo/Fasching for McNabb, Parker and 2 seconds.
McNabb probably has an edge of DLo as an NHLer, but Parker is a 24yrold in the ECHL, and I don't know about the two seconds. Fasching is a PPG guy at UMinnesota and a regular on the USA Jrs.

A win, two draws, and perhaps a slight loss. But everyone of them gave us NHL talent now. Overall, I hear the "we have no prospects" complaint as saying "Murray doesn't have the ammunition to pull of a FIFTH blockbuster for in 24 months for even more NHL talent." First, none of us knows whether that's true; and second, even if it is, do we care?

I'm going to take the pieces one by one, and see if I can't understand this fully. Murray made four major trades I see as the subject of the hate posts in these threads.

1. ROR/McGinn for Grigo/Zads/Compher/2016#31 (Jeremy Roy)
I think the consensus on this trade is Buffalo win. If there's a question, I haven't heard much about it.

2. Kane/Bogo/Kasdorf for Myers/Stafford/Armia/Lemieux/2015#25 (Jack Roslovic)
I think in most people's minds, this trade is close to a draw. Bogo and Kane are both under contract. Stafford was UFA, and the "potential" aspect of the deal is yet to be realized by either team. Hard to call a winner or a loser.

3. Lehner/Legwand for 2015#21 (Colin White)
This is the one everybody blows up, but I really don't get it. I think the frequent complaint is that Lehner hasn't finished a single game in the NHL since the trade, but Colin White hasn't either. He may be great, but today Jonathan Drouin, a #3 overall, is still playing in the NHL, and Broads tells us all the time and Kane and Bogo are both busts, so why is the uncertainty over Lehner any more unsettling than the uncertainty around a #21? And Legwand is giving us games in the NHL, if nothing else.

4. DLo/Fasching for McNabb, Parker and 2 seconds.
McNabb probably has an edge of DLo as an NHLer, but Parker is a 24yrold in the ECHL, and I don't know about the two seconds. Fasching is a PPG guy at UMinnesota and a regular on the USA Jrs.

A win, two draws, and perhaps a slight loss. But everyone of them gave us NHL talent now. Overall, I hear the "we have no prospects" complaint as saying "Murray doesn't have the ammunition to pull of a FIFTH blockbuster for in 24 months for even more NHL talent." First, none of us knows whether that's true; and second, even if it is, do we care?
- Der Kaiser

I love O'Reilly, and right now he nailed that trade. However, calling it a win is so shortsighted based on where we are in the standings.

O'Reilly has been great and we are in 29th. Zadorov is in the AHL, Compher in college and Grigorenko playing 3rd line minutes, and Colorado is better.

I love O'Reilly, and right now he nailed that trade. However, calling it a win is so shortsighted based on where we are in the standings.

O'Reilly has been great and we are in 29th. Zadorov is in the AHL, Compher in college and Grigorenko playing 3rd line minutes, and Colorado is better.
- sbroads24

Shortsightedness is the expectation that one trade is all that's required to turn around a franchise.

I love O'Reilly, and right now he nailed that trade. However, calling it a win is so shortsighted based on where we are in the standings.

O'Reilly has been great and we are in 29th. Zadorov is in the AHL, Compher in college and Grigorenko playing 3rd line minutes, and Colorado is better.
- sbroads24

Colorado is 1 point better than they were at this point last season with 1 more game played this year. They're no better than they were last year. Right now isn't the best time to compare the 2 teams, since Buffalo had the 0 win January 2015, but it's got to turn out that Buffalo will be at least 10 points better than last season by time this month is over. Will Colorado be?

Good stuff

Do you do these number things? Seems there oughta be some kinda comprehensive stat for forwards


- Der Kaiser[SOG/60 + A/60 + FOW/60] - GAOI/60

It would be the mother of all stats. GAOI = goals allowed while on ice.

Kaiser, check out this website: http://ownthepuck.blogspot.com.

I think you will have fun. The Glass to Crosby scale rates every player based on their scoring rate and how much better they make their line mates possession numbers are when they play with the player in question. The problem with these statistics is that it is harder to get quality statistics on some of our players, because almost all of these numbers are based on sample size (something that our rookies simply don't have).

edit: I'll prepare an update on some of the corsi and p/60 numbers I find interesting from this season