but you still have to do things that fit within the lifecycle of your team.

the leafs have absolutely positioned themselves to do what you said - but on a smaller scale. they acquired a number of cheap contracts (some for free) and are now in position to trade those assets off when GM's are known to buy high.

i sure hope leafs management traveled with the team to hang out with doug wilson for a couple days in SJ.

in the future, if their current tactics work out, they should have the depth at both the nhl and prospect levels to make bigger moves that you would like to see.
- Tumbleweed

Totally agree about the lifecycle thing, like it's not an uncomplicated black and white thing. I just think teams could be a little more freewheeling.

Leafs are in a great position too.

To me, the idea of having RNH, CmcD and LD down the middle is too good to mess with. You get a massive edge by having essentially three first lines. That's how you win a Cup. I am trading Eberle and the first and that's it.
- James_Tanner

RNH would be my third line center on that Oilers team, to me he doesn't fit "my" definition of what I want from a third line center.

Considering the minutes McDavid and Draisaitl would, or should, be getting as the top centres down the middle IMO you'd be wasting RNH's talent in that position. Trade him for defensive help and strengthen that position.

Most great teams had a really good 1/2 combo's at center, Yzerman/Fedorov, Gretzky/Messier, Lemieux/Francis, Sakic/Forsberg, Crosby/Malkin, Kopitar/Carter etc. etc. (just to name a few)

Do you know who the third line center is on those teams without looking it up?

Totally agree about the lifecycle thing, like it's not an uncomplicated black and white thing. I just think teams could be a little more freewheeling.

Leafs are in a great position too.
- James_Tanner

i absolutely agree that you still have to be opportunistic ... if you have a chance to acquire a great player for cheap, you do it.


that's why the leafs will be signing stamkos if TB doesn't

was the league more trade happy back then? I honestly just don't remember.

edit: thinking back to the fletcher years, the leafs definitely were
- Tumbleweed

Think of the Cup winners in that era. Almost every single one of had much of their core imported from elsewhere. The Pens (Francis, Samuelsson, Coffey, Barrasso), Rangers (the entire team aside from Leetch, Zubov, Kovalev and Richter), the relatively homegrown '95 Devils still led by Scott Stevens, the '96 Avs (most of the team aside from Sakic, Foote, Deadmarsh, Kamensky), Stars (Hull, Zubov, Belfour).
The Wings were relatively homegrown aside from Shanahan and Vernon.

Now look at the winners from the past few years. The Pens were entirely built around homegrown talent (with Kunitz and Gonchar sprinkled in),. The Kings (aside from Carter and Richards) and Hawks (aside from Hossa and Campbell) were too, and would have stayed that way if not for the cap. Only the Bruins with Chara, etc. were built around players from elsewhere.

Jesus who cares. He's also 23. Or 34 and ambidextrous. !!!
- James_Tanner

I'm starting to wonder if you even watch the games or is all your hockey knowledge tied to behindthenet.ca.

But teams should really look into this when they hire people. If you hire a guy who's main goal is to stay employed, he is probably a bad choice, and I bet 28 of the GMs in the league have this problem to some degree.

I don't think Columbus GM does and I don't think Lou Lamoriello does, but I also don't think LL is the "real" GM. So 28 of 29 are too scared to try anything unless their hand is absolutely forced.
- James_Tanner

Good read, but when has LL ever made even a slightly risky big name trade?

I can't think of any in the past 10 years, maybe trading for Ilya Kovalchuk is the biggest fish from his last decade and it was successful for a while until it blew up and Kovy bolted to motha Russia

Think of the Cup winners in that era. Almost every single one of had much of their core imported from elsewhere. The Pens (Francis, Samuelsson, Coffey, Barrasso), Rangers (the entire team aside from Leetch, Zubov, Kovalev and Richter), the relatively homegrown '95 Devils still led by Scott Stevens, the '96 Avs (most of the team aside from Sakic, Foote, Deadmarsh, Kamensky), Stars (Hull, Zubov, Belfour).
The Wings were relatively homegrown aside from Shanahan and Vernon.

Now look at the winners from the past few years. The Pens were entirely built around homegrown talent (with Kunitz and Gonchar sprinkled in),. The Kings (aside from Carter and Richards) and Hawks (aside from Hossa and Campbell) were too, and would have stayed that way if not for the cap. Only the Bruins with Chara, etc. were built around players from elsewhere.
- Snowblind

Boston's most important pieces were all drafted by their team though, Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic & Marchand were all tops in scoring. But yes Chara, Horton & Thomas were all important.

Boston's most important pieces were all drafted by their team though, Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic & Marchand were all tops in scoring. But yes Chara, Horton & Thomas were all important.
- LeftCoaster

I guess I'm thinking of Chara and Thomas as 2 of their top 3 (along with Bergeron). Those other teams were, at the end of the day, built around Crosby, Malkin, Staal or Doughty, Kopitar, Quick or Toews, Kane, Keith.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 11m11 minutes ago
Brandon Gormley (COL) on waivers.

FYI
- eichiefs9

Good read, but when has LL ever made even a slightly risky big name trade?

I can't think of any in the past 10 years, maybe trading for Ilya Kovalchuk is the biggest fish from his last decade and it was successful for a while until it blew up and Kovy bolted to motha Russia
- nikel

gotta go back to 2002 with arnott/nieuwendyk

Lou has been a shark when it comes to trades. He's made a lot of trades, and rarely lost. Acquired a lot of key players over the years through trades. Even with Kovy, he didn't end up giving up much for him.

His recent history of signing players in NJ was probably the only real blackmark(s) on his record.

RNH would be my third line center on that Oilers team, to me he doesn't fit "my" definition of what I want from a third line center.

Considering the minutes McDavid and Draisaitl would, or should, be getting as the top centres down the middle IMO you'd be wasting RNH's talent in that position. Trade him for defensive help and strengthen that position.

Most great teams had a really good 1/2 combo's at center, Yzerman/Fedorov, Gretzky/Messier, Lemieux/Francis, Sakic/Forsberg, Crosby/Malkin, Kopitar/Carter etc. etc. (just to name a few)

Do you know who the third line center is on those teams without looking it up?
- LeftCoaster

It really doesn't matter if any teams have done it before - Staal on PGH in 09 comes to mind - its a solid strategy. So you traditionally want a grinder on the third line? Why? What grinder will out perform RNH, especially when getting probably the easiest matchups vs skill rating in the whole league?

It wouldn't be too hard to then make getting a defensive specialist type of dude for your fourth line, but as we now know without a doubt, offensive players tend to have bigger defensive impacts than defensive specialists.

RNH at 3C isn't a waste, it's an exploitation.

i absolutely agree that you still have to be opportunistic ... if you have a chance to acquire a great player for cheap, you do it.


that's why the leafs will be signing stamkos if TB doesn't
- Tumbleweed

Stamkos wouldn't be cheap to acquire though. Even as a UFA you have to take his dollars, dollar for dollar, off what you can play other players. Therefore the cost of signing him is the guys you don't sign.

Signing Stamkos would lead to the Leafs paying a 32 year old declining ex superstar 11 million a year and trading away a 25 year old Mitch Marner as he enters his prime. The math says the Leafs should never even consider singing SS even if he wants to come here.

Good read, but when has LL ever made even a slightly risky big name trade?

I can't think of any in the past 10 years, maybe trading for Ilya Kovalchuk is the biggest fish from his last decade and it was successful for a while until it blew up and Kovy bolted to motha Russia
- nikel

He may not be a free swinging trade freak, but he has shown that he will do what he thinks is the best move and nuts to anyone else who thinks differently.

Think of the Cup winners in that era. Almost every single one of had much of their core imported from elsewhere. The Pens (Francis, Samuelsson, Coffey, Barrasso), Rangers (the entire team aside from Leetch, Zubov, Kovalev and Richter), the relatively homegrown '95 Devils still led by Scott Stevens, the '96 Avs (most of the team aside from Sakic, Foote, Deadmarsh, Kamensky), Stars (Hull, Zubov, Belfour).
The Wings were relatively homegrown aside from Shanahan and Vernon.

Now look at the winners from the past few years. The Pens were entirely built around homegrown talent (with Kunitz and Gonchar sprinkled in),. The Kings (aside from Carter and Richards) and Hawks (aside from Hossa and Campbell) were too, and would have stayed that way if not for the cap. Only the Bruins with Chara, etc. were built around players from elsewhere.
- Snowblind

Yeah, definitely a lot more blockbuster deals back in the 90's.

I think both the kings and hawks (to a lesser extent the bruins)added key pieces to fill holes at the right time - having a established young core ready to compete.

whether it be trade or FA, i think at some point you to add to fill holes as it's unlikely to have a well-rounded roster internally developed.

the isles and panthers are good recent examples of teams adding to their core; and for cheap.

edmonton is the big failure.

Yes, but that is a terrible strategy. Just based off the number of horrible moves NHL GMs have made in the past six months, you can figure that half the teams in the NHL are primed to be ripped off.

So, in effect, if you're competent, you can make moves knowing your risk factor is lower than it should be just because the competition is known to do really dumb things.
- James_Tanner

Being too aggressive can backfire too.

IMO Tim Murray was way too aggressive this past year.

Ryan O'Reilly looks like an awesome trade. Then on the flip side, the Sabres are getting virtually nothing from the Kane/Bogosian deal.

Then he moves a first in a loaded draft for Lehner.

All while the Sabres still sit in 29th place.

grossman > gormley. fact.

Tanner please tell us all how gormley has got shafted once again.

Stamkos wouldn't be cheap to acquire though. Even as a UFA you have to take his dollars, dollar for dollar, off what you can play other players. Therefore the cost of signing him is the guys you don't sign.

Signing Stamkos would lead to the Leafs paying a 32 year old declining ex superstar 11 million a year and trading away a 25 year old Mitch Marner as he enters his prime. The math says the Leafs should never even consider singing SS even if he wants to come here.
- James_Tanner

But that shouldn't they take the gamble?

grossman > gormley. fact.

Tanner please tell us all how gormley has got shafted once again.
- rinaldo

I know you are trolling but he really is getting the shaft by Roy on this one

I know you are trolling but he really is getting the shaft by Roy on this one
- DDM-Coga

how so?

Stamkos wouldn't be cheap to acquire though. Even as a UFA you have to take his dollars, dollar for dollar, off what you can play other players. Therefore the cost of signing him is the guys you don't sign.

Signing Stamkos would lead to the Leafs paying a 32 year old declining ex superstar 11 million a year and trading away a 25 year old Mitch Marner as he enters his prime. The math says the Leafs should never even consider singing SS even if he wants to come here.
- James_Tanner

calling out GM's as chickens and than being afraid to sign stamkos??? c'mon man.

honestly, i was initially thinking the same thing; but i've come around.

the opportunity to acquire elite talent through free agency rarely (for some teams maybe never) comes around, and like you said, he'll only be 32 at contracts end.

not sure that it'll be so cut and dry as making a decision of stamkos vs. marner. a lot can happen between now and then. teams have proven to find a lot of creative solutions to cap dilemmas.

i also think this is a great time to bet on the canadian dollar. i see more upside potential than downside risk over the next few years. I think it is a smart risk to bet on the canadian dollar fueling some bigger cap increases. maybe not in the next year or 2, but beyond that.

It really doesn't matter if any teams have done it before - Staal on PGH in 09 comes to mind - its a solid strategy. So you traditionally want a grinder on the third line? Why? What grinder will out perform RNH, especially when getting probably the easiest matchups vs skill rating in the whole league?

It wouldn't be too hard to then make getting a defensive specialist type of dude for your fourth line, but as we now know without a doubt, offensive players tend to have bigger defensive impacts than defensive specialists.

RNH at 3C isn't a waste, it's an exploitation.
- James_Tanner

Nope - not thinking a grinder at all, I'm thinking of a Jordan Staal or Jared Stoll kinda guy, someone who's very good on the dot, very good on the PK, but can still contribute offensively etc.

I just think you're (a GM/coach not you) undervaluing RNH if you stick him on a third line and you're paying him 6 million dollars. He's a top six guy, just my opinion but I think it's good asset management to trade him for a weakness in other areas….especially given his salary in a cap world.

gotta go back to 2002 with arnott/nieuwendyk

Lou has been a shark when it comes to trades. He's made a lot of trades, and rarely lost. Acquired a lot of key players over the years through trades. Even with Kovy, he didn't end up giving up much for him.

His recent history of signing players in NJ was probably the only real blackmark(s) on his record.
- Tumbleweed

i would say he won the Kovy trade (initially), but "didn't give up anything" isn't quite true...aside from the no name players that were swapped, he gave up a First and Oduya.....and then not only did he lose Kovy for nothing 3 seasons later, but also were fined $3M, lost a 1st and a 3rd!!

Like i said, prior to 2005, sure he was pretty keen, picking up Parise and Zajac in pick swaps....but since then he's done absolutely nothing extraordinary.

how so?
- rinaldo

hes a solid 3rd pairing Dman, smart and moves the puck well. But Roy likes his foot soliders like Stuart and Guenin in that role.

Stamkos wouldn't be cheap to acquire though. Even as a UFA you have to take his dollars, dollar for dollar, off what you can play other players. Therefore the cost of signing him is the guys you don't sign.

Signing Stamkos would lead to the Leafs paying a 32 year old declining ex superstar 11 million a year and trading away a 25 year old Mitch Marner as he enters his prime. The math says the Leafs should never even consider singing SS even if he wants to come here.
- James_Tanner

You can't assume that they will have to trade Marner at that point because:

1- Nobody knows where the Canadian dollar and by extension the salary cap will be in 6 years
2 - Nobody knows what player perssonel decisions will be made between now and then
3 - Nobody knows what terrible or terrific contracts the Leafs will have at that point
4 - Nobody knows how exactly any of their prospects will pan out by then

There are far too many unknown variables in this equation to allow for such an assertion as the one made above. I know the math behind the reasoning regarding Stamkos' inevitable decline but that alone shouldn't preclude a rebuilding team who are already showing definite improvement in on ice play, prospect depth and organizational philosophy from acquiring a bonafide star centre who still has some very productive seasons remaining in his career even if he spends his twilight years being somewhat overpaid.

Being too aggressive can backfire too.

IMO Tim Murray was way too aggressive this past year.

Ryan O'Reilly looks like an awesome trade. Then on the flip side, the Sabres are getting virtually nothing from the Kane/Bogosian deal.

Then he moves a first in a loaded draft for Lehner.

All while the Sabres still sit in 29th place.
- sbroads24

I think if you add the ROR and Myers trades together, the Sabres still come out ahead, but that deal with OTT was was way to cute. The Sabres weren't going anywhere this year regardless. Just being competitive (which they now are) should have been the goal.

Is that pick they traded for Lehner protected at all?