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Forums :: Blog World :: James Tanner: Brodie, Muzzin on Team Canada, 4 Who Should Retire + Tanner a Pirate? Yarr!
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molly2522
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: long beach, IN
Joined: 07.13.2011

Feb 20 @ 2:12 PM ET
I think T.J Brodie might be the best defenseman in the NHL who isn't Karlsson or OEL, so it's not about hits, it's more about this is what I think and I have stats to prove it and reputation is still the dominant form of player analysis, which is stupid.

There is no evidence to suggest Duncan Keith is better than T.J Brodie in 2016 and if you think I'm saying that just to say it then I can't help that - but I think it sounds something like a Trump supporter arguing against Bernie Sanders.

- James_Tanner


The real season starts during the playoffs and Keith and the Hawks know that
molly2522
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: long beach, IN
Joined: 07.13.2011

Feb 20 @ 2:15 PM ET
Play-offs are irrelevant just like power play points. They don't tell you the real story of who a player is.
- NEONDOUBLEDION


Are you being sarcastic?
Tanuki
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.27.2010

Feb 20 @ 2:20 PM ET
Play-offs are irrelevant just like power play points. They don't tell you the real story of who a player is.
- NEONDOUBLEDION


This is awesome.
SPIDEROCKSTAR
Location: Ugh.... your sooooo lucky I'm banned... 9 more days and your gonna get it... - HouseArrest187, QC
Joined: 08.08.2010

Feb 20 @ 2:38 PM ET
Duncan Keith is the best defenceman in the World, Drew Doughty is 2nd and 3rd is Shea Weber.
NEONDOUBLEDION
Anaheim Ducks
Location: EDMONTON, AB
Joined: 02.04.2015

Feb 20 @ 2:38 PM ET
Are you being sarcastic?
- molly2522



Yes I am. I thought the tone would be clear haha. I didn't want to use an emoticon because they offend Tanner and may lead to me getting another ban.
Newgod77
Boston Bruins
Location: IL
Joined: 05.10.2015

Feb 20 @ 2:54 PM ET
Ramble, ramble, ramble.
SimpleJack
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago , IL
Joined: 05.23.2013

Feb 20 @ 2:59 PM ET
The real season starts during the playoffs and Keith and the Hawks know that
- molly2522


Tanner knows it too he's just messing around trying to cause a stir with certain comments.
Garnie
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: ON
Joined: 11.30.2009

Feb 20 @ 3:04 PM ET
baaaaaaa
molly2522
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: long beach, IN
Joined: 07.13.2011

Feb 20 @ 3:13 PM ET
Yes I am. I thought the tone would be clear haha. I didn't want to use an emoticon because they offend Tanner and may lead to me getting another ban.
- NEONDOUBLEDION


After reading this article Im guessing Tanner is sleeping the bender he was on OFF
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 3:56 PM ET
As an American I wish they gave you the authority to choose the team since your statement about Keith being overrated indicates you know nothing about hockey or talent evaluation
Did you miss last years stanley cup playoffs were he was near perfect while playing 30 minutes a game

- molly2522


You guys really got to stop with the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is either just trolling or "doesn't know anything about hockey." It's annoying.

If someone has a different opinion, go do the research and find out why.

Don't resort to lazy arguments.

Keith provides a ton of offense, but plays for one of the highest scoring teams.

Brodie is the third offensive option on his team, so he has worse offensive numbers, but he drives possession better and he limits shots better.

And the numbers fully and without question back me up.

So how can a guy troll you with facts? Please riddle me that.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 3:57 PM ET
Duncan Keith is the best defenceman in the World, Drew Doughty is 2nd and 3rd is Shea Weber.
- SPIDEROCKSTAR



Maybe in 2010, sure.

Maybe on EA sports too.

Maybe the mainstream media would agree.

Reputations too.

But time and time again, the stats say something differently.

Stats are reality.
Snowblind
New York Islanders
Joined: 03.08.2014

Feb 20 @ 3:58 PM ET
How many cups do Keith and Seabrook have to win to get Tanner's respect?

Why does OEL (rightfully) get so much love, but Burns and Weber, 2 other goal-scoring dynamos from the blue line do not?

You may not score on 100% of the shots you do not take, but you also don't score on 100% of the shots that are saved by the goalie or do not hit the net at all.

Kanye is trash.
masterhans
Los Angeles Kings
Location: alta loma, CA
Joined: 02.22.2011

Feb 20 @ 4:58 PM ET
How many cups do Keith and Seabrook have to win to get Tanner's respect?

Why does OEL (rightfully) get so much love, but Burns and Weber, 2 other goal-scoring dynamos from the blue line do not?

You may not score on 100% of the shots you do not take, but you also don't score on 100% of the shots that are saved by the goalie or do not hit the net at all.

Kanye is trash.

- Snowblind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uf1g6N4sKY
HB77
Edmonton Oilers
Location: PC is a genius for drafting mcdavid
Joined: 02.20.2007

Feb 20 @ 4:58 PM ET
Maybe in 2010, sure.

Maybe on EA sports too.

Maybe the mainstream media would agree.

Reputations too.

But time and time again, the stats say something differently.

Stats are reality.

- James_Tanner


Well, the statistics that you see as gospel are the only realistic way you want to judge talent. And that's fine.

And even putting aside the fact that those same statistics need caveats and to be into proper perspective. Not everyone agrees that your analysis is realistic as you say.
In fact, I think many people feel judging a players impact in the nhl on paper alone is extremely unrealistic and has so many flaws. And I can only guess that the guys picking the team feel the same way. And them feeling Duncan Keith is far and away the superior choice to muzzin has nothing to do with sentimentality, but flat out because he's the better nhl'er.

I'm sure this didn't come off as clearly as intended, but it made sense in my head . Feels like we're getting into existential territory here...
masterhans
Los Angeles Kings
Location: alta loma, CA
Joined: 02.22.2011

Feb 20 @ 5:00 PM ET
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uf1g6N4sKY
- masterhans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhJteYnoLBI
Snowblind
New York Islanders
Joined: 03.08.2014

Feb 20 @ 5:07 PM ET
Well, the statistics that you see as gospel are the only realistic way you want to judge talent. And that's fine.

And even putting aside the fact that those same statistics need caveats and to be into proper perspective. Not everyone agrees that your analysis is realistic as you say.
In fact, I think many people feel judging a players impact in the nhl on paper alone is extremely unrealistic and has so many flaws. And I can only guess that the guys picking the team feel the same way. And them feeling Duncan Keith is far and away the superior choice to muzzin has nothing to do with sentimentality, but flat out because he's the better nhl'er.

I'm sure this didn't come off as clearly as intended, but it made sense in my head . Feels like we're getting into existential territory here...

- HB77


I doubt Jake Muzzin's mom even believes her boy is a better player than Duncan Keith.
flamminghead
Calgary Flames
Location: As good as they are in the off, AB
Joined: 09.02.2009

Feb 20 @ 5:29 PM ET
James if you are going to claim that Brodie and Muzzin are better than Keith and Doughy you should show us the analysis in your blog. Why do you talk about Brodie and Muzzin and then show the HERO analysis for Karlsson? Show the numbers to support your arguments instead of telling your readers to do their own research. I also don't understand why you keep bringing up politics on a hockey site. Bernie Sanders' lack of economic knowledge is potentially dangerous.
masterhans
Los Angeles Kings
Location: alta loma, CA
Joined: 02.22.2011

Feb 20 @ 6:00 PM ET
James if you are going to claim that Brodie and Muzzin are better than Keith and Doughy you should show us the analysis in your blog. Why do you talk about Brodie and Muzzin and then show the HERO analysis for Karlsson? Show the numbers to support your arguments instead of telling your readers to do their own research. I also don't understand why you keep bringing up politics on a hockey site. Bernie Sanders' lack of economic knowledge is potentially dangerous.
- flamminghead

because hes a moron
Katana777
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 06.21.2015

Feb 20 @ 7:47 PM ET
Tanner knows it too he's just messing around trying to cause a stir with certain comments.
- SimpleJack



exactly.

Im just waiting for the "c'mon guys, I was just kidding... where is your sense of humor" routine he usually pulls.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 8:55 PM ET
James if you are going to claim that Brodie and Muzzin are better than Keith and Doughy you should show us the analysis in your blog. Why do you talk about Brodie and Muzzin and then show the HERO analysis for Karlsson? Show the numbers to support your arguments instead of telling your readers to do their own research. I also don't understand why you keep bringing up politics on a hockey site. Bernie Sanders' lack of economic knowledge is potentially dangerous.
- flamminghead



The Hero Chart was supposed to be of Brodie. I don't know how I ended up putting a Karlsson one. Looks nice though.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 8:58 PM ET
exactly.

Im just waiting for the "c'mon guys, I was just kidding... where is your sense of humor" routine he usually pulls.

- Katana777




Flat out lying is pretty pathetic.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 9:21 PM ET
Well, the statistics that you see as gospel are the only realistic way you want to judge talent. And that's fine.

And even putting aside the fact that those same statistics need caveats and to be into proper perspective. Not everyone agrees that your analysis is realistic as you say.
In fact, I think many people feel judging a players impact in the nhl on paper alone is extremely unrealistic and has so many flaws. And I can only guess that the guys picking the team feel the same way. And them feeling Duncan Keith is far and away the superior choice to muzzin has nothing to do with sentimentality, but flat out because he's the better nhl'er.

I'm sure this didn't come off as clearly as intended, but it made sense in my head . Feels like we're getting into existential territory here...

- HB77


Before I start, I am a great fan of your hockeybuzz commenting, and if this comes across as jerky, my apologies.

But, you are acting like this is a debate that has a subjective answer. It does not.

Forget hockey for a second, in the history of the world - doesn't matter the topic - there are the things that people though, and then there were people who collected data and used it to test their hypotheses.

The answers they got (we are destroying the earth with pollution, the earth spins around the sun etc) didn't always match up to conventional wisdom (rarely ever) and people often called them idiots, burned them at stakes, had them crucified, exiled or in most cases, just mocked.

However, as time went on, people began to accept science and the results of provable experiments became accepted as facts (until the early the 2000s when republicans decided it was inconvenient).

Hockey is the exact same thing. You can watch it - and you should - and your eyes can tell you useful things like "that guy is fast compared to other players on the ice" or whatever. In general, watching the game can be helpful - not to mention fun - but it sucks for analyzing players.

This is because

1) As a human you are subject to biases. Confirmation bias means that you will use information that confirms what you already believe and discount what doesn't. This is unavoidable and every single person is affected.

2) Recency bias. This is where you put more weight on things you've recently seen.

3) Lack of ability to watch all players. You can only watch so many games on any given night. Even if your job was to watch hockey you would be hard pressed to watch every single player and every single team.

4) Highlight bias. Not sure what the real name for this would be, but if you watch a game you remember big plays, yet the reason some no-name players are more effective on paper than their popular counterparts is because they do subtle things like skate the puck out of danger or make a slightly more crisp pass that add up over time and in reality count more than the one huge play you remember.

5) Human memory sucks. It is a fact that you fill in your memories with BS. If ten people witness an event, you're likely to get ten wildly different stories, no one is lying, human memory just fills in the blanks.

6) Patterns. The only way to deal with the world is to put information into useful patterns. While this is generally helpful for dealing with life, it makes you prone to seeing things that don't exist and didn't happen. You make inferences that are incorrect and credit them as facts.

7) Authority Bias. This means that if a guy is on TV and says something, you're likely to believe it and pass it on as fact. If some low life blogger says something that seems weird, it's really easy to say "Well the GM disagrees." But this is not smart because even professionals are bad at their jobs or make mistakes. In fact, a professional is way less likely to be open to new information or ideas because he himself thinks he got where he is because of skill. In reality, most GMs are ex-jocks who've had multiple concussions and have their jobs through connections in the game.


For all these reasons, and probably a dozen more, it is very hard to watch hockey and make accurate assessments. For this reason, it is not subjectively, but OBJECTIVELY true that stats based analysis is superior.

You don't have to agree, but your agreement isn't the deciding factor in whether something is true or not.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you use stats (and there is an objective answer to which ones are best to use as well) you will be able to make better projections with your analysis.

Yes, perspective and context are important in this, but those things are important in everything. There is flaws in all analysis - and interpretation of numbers is subjective and subject to bias as well - but whether we are talking hockey, poker, space or mechanics, a math-based approach is always the superior one.

I mean, if you want to think about it, do you really think hockey is the one exception in the entire world where just looking at it provides better analysis than a data based approach?

Tanuki
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.27.2010

Feb 20 @ 9:33 PM ET

Stats are reality.

- James_Tanner


Let's just suspend reality and agree that this statement is true. If you are going to use certain statistical breakdowns to make a point, you cannot add in your own personal caveats to change the outcome. For example - Duncan Keith. You marginalized his value by saying:

"Keith provides a ton of offense, but plays for one of the highest scoring teams."

Then why do you not over-value Muzzin because he plays for a solid defensive team, and, his defense partner is Drew Doughty?

The Calgary Flames and Arizona Coyotes are in the top ten in goals per game, does that mean that OEL and Brodie's numbers are skewed also?

The Hawks are 5th in goals against per game - better than the Kings. Not bad for a defensive core that features two of the most overrated players in the game. Should Keith's value be further reduced because the Hawks are a good defensive team?

But, the real issue is that if you wan't to use statistics to gauge the value of players, you need to be consistent.


James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 9:35 PM ET
I doubt Jake Muzzin's mom even believes her boy is a better player than Duncan Keith.
- Snowblind



Brodie 48 games 23 5v5 pts 4.2 Relative Corsi 25.94 Shots-against / 60
Keith 51 games 16 5v5 pts 4.04 RC 31.22
Muzzin 57 games 15 5v5 pts 1.15 RC 26.66

Brodie +31 Scoring Chance diff. +4 High Danger Scoring chances
Keith +63 +6
Muzzin +123 +45


Brodie 19.61 TOI / game (5v5)
Keith 18.41
Muzzin 16.47

So: Brodie has the most points, gets the most ice time, has the best possession stats relative to his team, and allows the least amount of shots against.

Muzzin is the best possession player in hockey over the last several years (but not relative to his team) scores about as much as Keith, but prevents shots against as good as Brodie. Muzzin also happens to have just massive and insane differentials.

So, there is my argument. You can argue Keith has a better and bigger body of work (he is also 7 years older) and has cups and leadership and experience. That's fine. I did include him on my team.

But there is no evidence besides "I say so" that says that he is better than either of Muzzin or Brodie in 2016. None.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Feb 20 @ 9:37 PM ET
Let's just suspend reality and agree that this statement is true. If you are going to use certain statistical breakdowns to make a point, you cannot add in your own personal caveats to change the outcome. For example - Duncan Keith. You marginalized his value by saying:

"Keith provides a ton of offense, but plays for one of the highest scoring teams."

Then why do you not over-value Muzzin because he plays for a solid defensive team, and, his defense partner is Drew Doughty?

The Calgary Flames and Arizona Coyotes are in the top ten in goals per game, does that mean that OEL and Brodie's numbers are skewed also?

The Hawks are 5th in goals against per game - better than the Kings. Not bad for a defensive core that features two of the most overrated players in the game. Should Keith's value be further reduced because the Hawks are a good defensive team?

But, the real issue is that if you wan't to use statistics to gauge the value of players, you need to be consistent.

- Tanuki


So stats need context but just you don't like my context? Reality is that keith doesn't score more than either of them, so I was wrong, just not in the way you thought.

Jake Muzzin has barely played with Doughty this year.


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