Does seem a little contradictory.

However, it's a little different comparing forwards and defenseman. Also, we know that Kane is extremely sheltered, and Karlsson isn't really.

Also, Karlsson is really good defensively. Kane, not so much.
- James_Tanner

Right but forwards are there to score, a discrepancy among Hall/Kane is more indicative than a discrepancy between Doughty/Karlsson.

Two way play is over rated. Always has been.

It's like comparing Ovi to Landeskog and citing two way play as a reason they would be close. They aren't and never will be

I find that laughable. Don't you consider defensive ability in your rankings? Did you even look anything up, or just go by total points? Don't answer that, we both know the answer.
- James_Tanner

So to get this straight

You'd prefer that your BEST winger (the guy whose main job is to score the most goals) possess more defensive acumen, say Hall with around 30, versus an OV or Kane type who are going to focus more on scoring and hence net you 60 goals?

While it's true that any forward cannot be a liability in their own end, that's a far cry from what you're arguing for here.

You do realize there are 3 other lines that can function in a more shutdown role, and it's probably not the best use of elite talent to have top 10 scorers focusing MORE on defense than offense?

I don't. I would not trade Hall for Doughty. Also, Hall played all 82 games last year and Doughty scored at a lower rate than Dan Giardi.
- James_Tanner

But I've seen you say that Hall's better than some other players because of his Defense. But then you value Doughty only on offense when you should compare his defense to some of the other defenseman in the league. I would say it's head and shoulders above Giardi's as well as most others in the league. You say that playing defense as a forward should get you a higher standing in the rankings, but then out of the other side of your mouth don't talk about Doughty's defense at all. I'm confused, is defense important, or only points...

I would put Hall in the top 10 for wingers, and easily top 5 for LWs. Based on his age, what Edmonton has been like his whole career, I could see him becoming the best LW in the game. So no, I wouldn't trade him either.

But if LA offered Doughty,or some other team offered a Norris Trophy Winner, I'd take it in a second. THis is the only point I disagree with Tanner on.

But I don't see teams doing that, so, I agree with James, don't trade Hall. Its simply not worth it. Especially since we still haven't see him at his best.

Also Tanner, analytics are a subjective stat as well.

what have a fell for?

Never argued with him.

why are you posting then? wouldn't you then include yourself? which in turn would be calling yourself an idiot?
- rinaldo

You're a clown. You stalked James for months about his Gormley comments. (frank)ing loser.

Definitely difficult to read when people take everything literally and don't have a sense of humour at all. Plus, don't you know, if someone doesn't agree 100% with everything you previously think, they're an idiot.
- James_Tanner

so by default am I your favorite poster on this site now

Speaking on moving Hall for Doughty is kind of well, meaningless. Doughty is a King for life unless something crazy happens.

Anyways, out of all the Oiler players that should not be moved IMO Hall is the guy strictly on the fact that the Oilers are a pretty small team up front. They need size guys.

I do think the Oilers making a push for Lucic means that Hall could be out the door though. No reason in having 2 first line LWs at 6 mil a pop.

Maybe they realize they are going to get way better defensive talent moving Hall than anyone else on the team? Oilers defense is bottom 3 in the league. They need a lot of help.

But I've seen you say that Hall's better than some other players because of his Defense. But then you value Doughty only on offense when you should compare his defense to some of the other defenseman in the league. I would say it's head and shoulders above Giardi's as well as most others in the league. You say that playing defense as a forward should get you a higher standing in the rankings, but then out of the other side of your mouth don't talk about Doughty's defense at all. I'm confused, is defense important, or only points...
- SDSabre

Tanner just doesn't give Doughty enough credit because he doesn't fit his statistical breakdown of what the best d-man in the league is supposed to look like.

My opinion is this, when the best players in the world get together, Doughty is the best d-man at every tournament for Team Canada, the best d-man always in every tournament. He plays a bit differently in LA, but make no mistake, when he wants to be like or has to be like an "erik karlsson" or "Pk subban" or "brent burns", he can be. He just doesn't play that way in LA, because that's not the way LA's system works.

Does seem a little contradictory.

However, it's a little different comparing forwards and defenseman. Also, we know that Kane is extremely sheltered, and Karlsson isn't really.

Also, Karlsson is really good defensively. Kane, not so much.
- James_Tanner

I get that the comparison from D to F isn't perfect, but it just seems like your bending what you value to fit your current narrative. For the record I'm in the camp where I think Hall is probably the #4 winger in the league, and agree with you that Karlsson is arguably the best D in the league, but I just can't discredit 41 points more by Kane while playing with equal, or worse line mates. I'd also rank Benn over Hall based on a combo of superior production, and at the very least equal defensive play.

As much as Tanner is out to lunch as usual...any deal the oilers make tha is Hall for X player plus something? The oilers lose. If it's Hall plus a little something for a top 15 Dman in the league you do it.

Chances are if we trade Hall we lose the deal bad though.

Definitely difficult to read when people take everything literally and don't have a sense of humour at all. Plus, don't you know, if someone doesn't agree 100% with everything you previously think, they're an idiot.
- James_Tanner

I'm confused, are you saying that you were joking in your blog?

In that case you really need to help us readers better understand when you're serious about a ridiculous statement, and joking, because in all seriousness it's almost impossible for us to understand.

As much as Tanner is out to lunch as usual...any deal the oilers make tha is Hall for X player plus something? The oilers lose. If it's Hall plus a little something for a top 15 Dman in the league you do it.

Chances are if we trade Hall we lose the deal bad though.
- Iggysbff

First time you and I have ever agreed on anything.

No, I don't think it's really close either. I would way rather have the two-way game of Taylor Hall. Also, I think Hall doubles as a decent human, so there's that.
- James_Tanner

Well then I counter with Jamie Benn being above Hall. He has the 2 way game and size similar to Hall. Can't debate the human decency though

Great blog

Absolutely agreed. And I don't think he will be. Having him in one line and Connor on the other is the biggest positive that's come from all the brutal bottom feeding.

He's not the problem at all.


Although there's a few names I might add to karlsson, fact remains is nothing less than a true franchise defender makes it worth it for the oilers to deal hall

Tanner just doesn't give Doughty enough credit because he doesn't fit his statistical breakdown of what the best d-man in the league is supposed to look like.

My opinion is this, when the best players in the world get together, Doughty is the best d-man at every tournament for Team Canada, the best d-man always in every tournament. He plays a bit differently in LA, but make no mistake, when he wants to be like or has to be like an "erik karlsson" or "Pk subban" or "brent burns", he can be. He just doesn't play that way in LA, because that's not the way LA's system works.
- mykokes

Agreed. That's my point though. I don't want to get into a debate on who is the best offensive-defenseman, defensive-defenseman or just be defenseman, but I think most, if not all, would agree that Doughty is in the conversation for top 3 and is for sure a top 5 defenseman in the league. Since Hall is also in the conversation for LW in the league, and the Oilers need help on the back end with all the surplus of forwards that they have, why not take a little hit on LW (a less important position) for a substantial increase at D (a more important position)? If LA proposed a 1-1, the Oilers couldn't fax, email, call, or whatever the NHL does today to approve that trade fast enough IMO.

As much as Tanner is out to lunch as usual...any deal the oilers make tha is Hall for X player plus something? The oilers lose. If it's Hall plus a little something for a top 15 Dman in the league you do it.

Chances are if we trade Hall we lose the deal bad though.
- Iggysbff

Hall for PK? I think that's an Edmonton win

Tanner is willing to go OEL for Hall, straight up.

Hall for PK? I think that's an Edmonton win
- claude1971

Tough call. I'm even on that one...but contract wise, if I'm Edmonton, I don't do that. 9M vs 6M.

....is Hall a RW or LW? I always thought he was a LW, but I notice a bunch of sites that have him on RW.

James meant the scoring rate when adjusted for 5v5 situations, in close games, on the East Coast, before Daylight Savings Time, when the temperature in the arena is below 70 degrees, on partly cloudy days.
- rangerdanger94

Still laughing at this

When you are in junior, you are what, 15? You live away from home and hardly even have to go to school? Plus, a top teenage athlete who's kinda of a Richard? Stop the presses right now.

When you hit your 20s you'll realize its sort of ridiculous (in most cases) to hold stories about someone as a teenager against them. (Also you'll probably learn that most stories are made up by jealous idiots).
- James_Tanner

16,17,18.

come on.

So now Hall has a two-way game. Better inform the rest of the league.

- JimmyBeem

He does

It's pretty underrated anyway


Him being poor defensively is just another typical tired hb narrative that people create and never bother to reassess. so they're still parroting the same nonsense 4 years after the first time they said it.

Nuge is too small at 6', 190+
The oilers forward group too small- maroon, kassian, Hendricks, drausaitl, hall- and potentially lucic, puljujarvi, khaira this season
Etc etc

Haha. Good call. For the record, I have nothing against the Oilers, but they have done an awful job developing the multiple first picks they've had. I think McDavid will be the one dude that will be the guy they have built him up to be.
- Hank3Henshaw

Except Yakupov, they've actually done pretty well. They just suck at surrounding those guys with good players.

Think the problem is defence is SUCH a big premium to acquire via trade when you are talking top two pairing, hell even top four. Oil coming in from a weak position trying to make said trade doesn't help. Add in who their GM is and his penchant for some questionable moves.... yeah, perfect storm!

Honestly the Oil need to move some of the forward talent out. Yak is definitely in play it seems, and honestly if they want a top two d you would think it would be Nuge in play as the big chip, but everyone is going to want to sell high and that is where I can see teams pushing not for him but for Hall.

Should Chiarelli do it? Likely no, as I don't see any team moving a Doughty, Karlsson, Weber etc. Oil are going to possibly make a bad move to try and shore up the defence.

So to get this straight

You'd prefer that your BEST winger (the guy whose main job is to score the most goals) possess more defensive acumen, say Hall with around 30, versus an OV or Kane type who are going to focus more on scoring and hence net you 60 goals?

While it's true that any forward cannot be a liability in their own end, that's a far cry from what you're arguing for here.

You do realize there are 3 other lines that can function in a more shutdown role, and it's probably not the best use of elite talent to have top 10 scorers focusing MORE on defense than offense?
- nikel

I definitely think Ovechkin is the best. But Hall is younger than all the other guys being considered for best winger. What are we arguing about, I agree with what you're saying here/