If we buy him out, we end up with a caphit next year.

If we don’t buy him out and use on LTIR on him/other players, we’re very likely to have bonus overage penalties for next year.

The extra contract spot for this year could be useful.

But I’m not losing sleep about it either way.
- Tumbleweed

I just want him to lose his money he dosnt deserve any of it

I don't know about you guys, but there is no way I sign any contract for any $ with any terms/language dictating how and when/when not to receive medical treatment for anything involving my personal well being.
- vermie22

How does that matter?

How does that matter?
- burn

I am saying I find it highly unlikely that there is anything in the contract preventing him from getting medical treatment as he sees fit. tHere might language on needing team doctors to clear him to play, but don't think there would anything preventing from getting treatment/surgery. it would be damn slippery slope if the team wanted to prevent you from getting needed surgery just save some cap dollars.

precisely... if he was instructed not to have further medical treatment then its bad on Cowen... if he was deemed healthy by the Leafs medical personnel, then he (Cowen) chose to have the surgery expressly to get around the buyout.

should be a simple ruling.
- BorjeFan4Ever

And the Leafs medical personnel are the know all and end all, I'd be going with the specialist myself.

I am saying I find it highly unlikely that there is anything in the contract preventing him from getting medical treatment as he sees fit. tHere might language on needing team doctors to clear him to play, but don't think there would anything preventing from getting treatment/surgery. it would be damn slippery slope if the team wanted to prevent you from getting needed surgery just save some cap dollars.
- vermie22

You are skipping a few steps here. He wanted to play last year - was sent home told not to play or practice (to avoid injury) because the team would buy him out this summer. He elected to have surgery in order to circumvent the buyout.

You are skipping a few steps here. He wanted to play last year - was sent home told not to play or practice (to avoid injury) because the team would buy him out this summer. He elected to have surgery in order to circumvent the buyout.
- winsix

that's an assumption, I still think said surgery would be at his discretion alone, and the team wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, nor should they ever be able to do so.

I am saying I find it highly unlikely that there is anything in the contract preventing him from getting medical treatment as he sees fit. tHere might language on needing team doctors to clear him to play, but don't think there would anything preventing from getting treatment/surgery. it would be damn slippery slope if the team wanted to prevent you from getting needed surgery just save some cap dollars.
- vermie22

Conversely one could go to a dr, and say give me surgery to aviod buyout or what not.


The teams employ dr and medical staff for a reason. He was cleared to play. I'd imagine that part of the contract state that they cannot run off and get surgery without their consent. They pay them a large sum of money and they pay medical professionals a good chunk. Go get a second opinion all you want but better make sure your employer knows you are having surgery

And the Leafs medical personnel are the know all and end all, I'd be going with the specialist myself.
- the_eye

reminds me of the Owen Nolan fiasco...I think the Leaf medical team was fired shortly afterwards

that's an assumption, I still think said surgery would be at his discretion alone, and the team wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, nor should they ever be able to do so.
- vermie22

That doesn't seem right. Teams pay millions to these players and pay medical professionals and you don't think they'd want a say in that asset?

That doesn't seem right. Teams pay millions to these players and pay medical professionals and you don't think they'd want a say in that asset?
- burn

they are not assets, they are people. no employer should be able to dictate whether or not you can or how you seek medical treatment. that would be basically giving the team power of attorney.

reminds me of the Owen Nolan fiasco...I think the Leaf medical team was fired shortly afterwards
- jimi james

Surely you are not trying to suggest that this management team is anything like the management team under John Ferguson Jr. (2003-2008 - When Nolan was with the Leafs)?

they are not assets, they are people. no employer should be able to dictate whether or not you can or how you seek medical treatment. that would be basically giving the team power of attorney.
- vermie22

Then why do teams have medical staffs?


I'm not saying they are allowed to dictate when and how they get medical treatment. No one is saying that the team can hold down the player on the OR table while they get surgery they don't want, or that they are allowed to refuse them treatment.

As much as you're saying the player needs to be protected, the same goes for the team.

Conversely one could go to a dr, and say give me surgery to aviod buyout or what not.


The teams employ dr and medical staff for a reason. He was cleared to play. I'd imagine that part of the contract state that they cannot run off and get surgery without their consent. They pay them a large sum of money and they pay medical professionals a good chunk. Go get a second opinion all you want but better make sure your employer knows you are having surgery
- burn

Why? they have zero right to stop him from becoming healthy.

Then why do teams have medical staffs?


I'm not saying they are allowed to dictate when and how they get medical treatment. No one is saying that the team can hold down the player on the OR table while they get surgery they don't want, or that they are allowed to refuse them treatment.

As much as you're saying the player needs to be protected, the same goes for the team.
- burn

the team has medical staff to make it easier on everyone, available resources ready to treat common sports injuries who are dedicated to your treatment and recovery.
In most cases this would be/is better than general care anywhere else but when it comes to more serious cases, many athletes seek treatment from specialists from all over the world.

that's an assumption, I still think said surgery would be at his discretion alone, and the team wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, nor should they ever be able to do so.
- vermie22

Actually no it is not an assumption. Let's go straight to the horse's mouth - his words not mine. Is this proof enough for you that he is only trying to get paid for full value of his contract rather than permit a buyout?

“I haven't been told much so I'm not even sure,” Cowen, acquired from the Ottawa Senators in the Dion Phaneuf trade earlier this month, said when asked what the plan was going forward.
Cowen, who practiced with the Leafs on Friday, had been on the injured list with hip tightness since arriving in Toronto.
“I feel much better,” Cowen said. “I feel good enough to play. I thought I was going to play, so it's a little disappointing

Actually no it is not an assumption. Let's go straight to the horse's mouth - his words not mine. Is this proof enough for you that he is only trying to get paid for full value of his contract rather than permit a buyout?
- winsix

him saying he feels good, isn't a professional medical opinion. when is the last time that any athlete (aside from Lupul) didn't say they feel good enough to play?

him saying he feels good, isn't a professional medical opinion. when is the last time that any athlete (aside from Lupul) didn't say they feel good enough to play?
- vermie22

The medical opinion was - he was cleared for practice - which he participated in on that day. He was deemed healthy and to protect that status was sent home told not to play or practice - because the Leafs intent was to buy him out. They were totally up front with him. As the buyout approached - months later - he elected to have surgery, does not matter whose professional opinion it was - it wasn't a team doctor, and the team doctor was not consulted. It is somewhat like "Larry could not write the Math test on Monday because he was sick - Yours Truly Larry's Mother"

I don't know about you guys, but there is no way I sign any contract for any $ with any terms/language dictating how and when/when not to receive medical treatment for anything involving my personal well being.
- vermie22

That's not the point - the point is that the Leafs employ a team of physicians that cleared him, he wanted to play at the time last year (whether it was with the Leafs or Marlies) when he was medically cleared and the Leafs said "no thanks, go home, stay healthy and you can find a team next year."

This is in no way offside - both the NHL and NHLPA collectively bargained buyouts in to the CBA. If he was hurt during the offseason, or if he elected to have surgery against the recommendation of the Leafs medical staff, he should ive with the consequences. Drs are bound by the Hippocratic oath - believe what you want about the biases team doctors may show with injuries, but on the surface that is what should be governing this.

Or, file a grievance against the Leafs medical staff, which I don't believe has been done...just a grievance RE the buyout.

Business not personal.

The medical opinion was - he was cleared for practice - which he participated in on that day. He was deemed healthy and to protect that status was sent home told not to play or practice - because the Leafs intent was to buy him out. They were totally up front with him. As the buyout approached - months later - he elected to have surgery, does not matter whose professional opinion it was - it wasn't a team doctor, and the team doctor was not consulted. It is somewhat like "Larry could not write the Math test on Monday because he was sick - Yours Truly Larry's Mother"
- winsix

You're nuts, if he goes to a specialist and they recommend surgery, you think a team doctor can over rule that specialist?

That's not the point - the point is that the Leafs employ a team of physicians that cleared him, he wanted to play at the time last year (whether it was with the Leafs or Marlies) when he was medically cleared and the Leafs said "no thanks, go home, stay healthy and you can find a team next year."

This is in no way offside - both the NHL and NHLPA collectively bargained buyouts in to the CBA. If he was hurt during the offseason, or if he elected to have surgery against the recommendation of the Leafs medical staff, he should ive with the consequences. Drs are bound by the Hippocratic oath - believe what you want about the biases team doctors may show with injuries, but on the surface that is what should be governing this.

Or, file a grievance against the Leafs medical staff, which I don't believe has been done...just a grievance RE the buyout.

Business not personal.
- Deeps27

Medically cleared for practice is totally different than medically cleared for a game.

I am saying I find it highly unlikely that there is anything in the contract preventing him from getting medical treatment as he sees fit. tHere might language on needing team doctors to clear him to play, but don't think there would anything preventing from getting treatment/surgery. it would be damn slippery slope if the team wanted to prevent you from getting needed surgery just save some cap dollars.
- vermie22

He can do whatever he wants RE his medical needs, but that should not have any impact on his contractual status when it comes to the team that employs him buying out the contract.

He had surgery to save the $3M he is going to lose as a result of the buyout - pretty cut and dry IMO.

Ariana Grande is hot.
- Tee-Dot

she so (frank)ing is

You're nuts, if he goes to a specialist and they recommend surgery, you think a team doctor can over rule that specialist?
- the_eye

No actually - you are blind - the client of the said specialist and therefore the source of his income from this matter was Cowen. This raises the issue of this being an arm's length transaction. Had the Leafs been given the opportunity to examine or get a second non-biased opinion would have cleared Cowen for the surgery - had the second opinion concurred with Cowen's Doctor. That however, was not what happened.

Why? they have zero right to stop him from becoming healthy.
- the_eye

They're paying medical professionals to check their health and they said (and he agreed) that he was healthy before he went off and had surgery?

No actually - you are blind - the client of the said specialist and therefore the source of his income from this matter was Cowen. This raises the issue of this being an arm's length transaction. Had the Leafs been given the opportunity to examine or get a second non-biased opinion would have cleared Cowen for the surgery - had the second opinion concurred with Cowen's Doctor. That however, was not what happened.
- winsix

All this is assuming that the Leafs didn't know about said condition in the first place.
Willing to bet Ottawa also knew.