Ghost was at worst average defensively in his first full NHL season. When he replaced Gudas on the top pairing with MDZ they did quite well together.

I think you're really underestimating the contributions Ghost and Gudas made to the team last season, and the trajectory they're on. Neither of them are third pairing dmen.

Schultz does play against top lines, but he didn't average a lot of minutes in 15-16, and might get less in 16-17.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/...ggregate=0&teamId=4&pos=D
- Feanor

Based on what you posted, Gudas is trusted in more offensive ice time, like Power Play.

I'm not going to say that Ghost can't repeat what he did last season, I'm just going to say he has to prove he can do it all again. What Ghost has done last season with a late start to the season has raised the bar for his own expectations. If he can do what he did last season as an offensive defenseman from Game 1 to Game 82, this wouls be the start of putting him among the elite of offensive defensemen ever probably in league history. At the same time a defenseman still has to be able to defend. There is no question of what he can do with the puck. As a defenseman, he has to round out what he can do without the puck.
- roenick97

I think you're downplaying what he does without the puck. You don't have to clear the crease or body check a guy in order to be good at defense. He has incredible awareness and speed to defend plays before they happen. Along with his counter attack abilities, he is a true asset. I think he got lucky with goals, but I don't see him struggling to produce points at a similar rate.

Based on what you posted, Gudas is trusted in more offensive ice time, like Power Play.
- roenick97

the 9 seconds per game, or did you mean ghost?

Ghost was at worst average defensively in his first full NHL season. When he replaced Gudas on the top pairing with MDZ they did quite well together.

I think you're really underestimating the contributions Ghost and Gudas made to the team last season, and the trajectory they're on. Neither of them are third pairing dmen.
- Feanor

Not everyone can play in the top 4. My original question was, where does Ghost rank on this team. I didn't pair Gudas and Ghost together. I recognized that they're 7 to 8 defenders on this team and 2 may sit. 2 may have to play on the third pair. I didn't list Gudas as a third pair player but he probably would be on a contender.

Based on what you posted, Gudas is trusted in more offensive ice time, like Power Play.
- roenick97

That's what you got out of Gudas averaging 16:58 in ES TOI/GP compared to 14:56 for Schultz, and averaging 9 seconds of PP TOI/GP compared to 3 seconds for Schultz?

the 9 seconds per game, or did you mean ghost?
- YuenglingJagr

Gudas to Schultz, if I was reading the link correctly.

IMHO, the top 4, in no particular order, are Streit, Del Zotto, Gostisbehere, and Gudas.

Below them are MacDonald, Schultz, and Manning.
- Streit2ThePoint

Accurate.

4 defensemen that are better than the other two/three defensemen
- Streit2ThePoint

Sensible.

I'm not going to say that Ghost can't repeat what he did last season, I'm just going to say he has to prove he can do it all again. What Ghost has done last season with a late start to the season has raised the bar for his own expectations. If he can do what he did last season as an offensive defenseman from Game 1 to Game 82, this wouls be the start of putting him among the elite of offensive defensemen ever probably in league history. At the same time a defenseman still has to be able to defend. There is no question of what he can do with the puck. As a defenseman, he has to round out what he can do without the puck.
- roenick97

Very well said. To be honest there are always going to be some challenges for Gostisbehere due to his size and physical strength. That's okay because he more than makes up for it in other areas.

That's what you got out of Gudas averaging 16:58 in ES TOI/GP compared to 14:56 for Schultz, and averaging 9 seconds of PP TOI/GP compared to 3 seconds for Schultz?
- Feanor

Is this going to turn into an argument? I'm having a discussion that seemed like it was going civil and frankly, I'm gonna put the breaks on if you're gonna start getting out of line.

Very well said. To be honest there are always going to be some challenges for Gostisbehere due to his size and physical strength. That's okay because he more than makes up for it in other areas.
- MJL

Well thank you, sir. I'm glad someone took the time to read the main point I'm making before losing their head.

Personally, I would vote strategically to include as many as possible.... the Hammer is going to be in the top 3 for sure but he's already living in this area as his permanent home and would be there regardless. I'd vote for guys who aren't around as often because they live elsewhere and who otherwise may not be part of a Heritage Night.

Example: Obviously, Homer will be there, and deserves to be even apart from his post-playing career. There will be a captain's night later in the season, so Mel Bridgman will be honored this season.
- bmeltzer

That's exactly what I did (before I read this). I voted for guys I don't get to see too often. Wilson, Bridgeman and DuPont. I figured Dorny, Homer and Hammer will be definites, Brown too. I really hope to see my three there as well

(Saleski too)

I think you're downplaying what he does without the puck. You don't have to clear the crease or body check a guy in order to be good at defense. He has incredible awareness and speed to defend plays before they happen. Along with his counter attack abilities, he is a true asset. I think he got lucky with goals, but I don't see him struggling to produce points at a similar rate.
- YuenglingJagr

You're not wrong. I see and understand what your saying but I never saw anything he did defensively this past season that made me think he's incredible defensively. I saw him use his speed a few times when forwards managed to get behind the defense and make a solid diving defensive play a couple times. I'm not saying he's crap defensively but his bread and butter so far is his speed and offense.

You're not wrong. I see and understand what your saying but I never saw anything he did defensively this past season that made me think he's incredible defensively. I saw him use his speed a few times when forwards managed to get behind the defense and make a solid diving defensive play a couple times. I'm not saying he's crap defensively but his bread and butter so far is his speed and offense.
- roenick97

Defending on the rush, and from the defensive circles to the offensive zone he is solid. Teams are going to try and attack him down low and around the net. He can use his skating and puck moving to limit teams trying to get the puck deep behind him.

Flyers is a great name but the best I can say about the Orange and Black is that it stands out.

Devils had a naming contest in 1982 and could have been the Americans or Blades among others...
- Queenie_5_hole

The New Jersey Boaty McBoatfaces.

Did I just read Schultz is ahead of Ghost? I admittedly skimmed at warp speed when I saw the argument was about Ghost as a third pair d man.

Defending on the rush, and from the defensive circles to the offensive zone he is solid. Teams are going to try and attack him down low and around the net. He can use his skating and puck moving to limit teams trying to get the puck deep behind him.
- MJL

Sure. What about taking pucks away from opposing players, like creating turnovers while defending down low? Wrapping guys up against the boards? Is Ghost all situations and a legitimate top 4 by taking on the other team's top 6?

Sure. What about taking pucks away from opposing players, like creating turnovers while defending down low? Wrapping guys up against the boards? Is Ghost all situations and a legitimate top 4 by taking on the other team's top 6?
- roenick97

its hard to take the puck away from opposing players when you already have it

Is this going to turn into an argument? I'm having a discussion that seemed like it was going civil and frankly, I'm gonna put the breaks on if you're gonna start getting out of line.
- roenick97

Don't be afraid of facts. Embrace them.

I think you're downplaying what he does without the puck. You don't have to clear the crease or body check a guy in order to be good at defense. He has incredible awareness and speed to defend plays before they happen. Along with his counter attack abilities, he is a true asset. I think he got lucky with goals, but I don't see him struggling to produce points at a similar rate.
- YuenglingJagr

Yeah, He is quite good defensively in the NZ. His ability to read the pass and get in a passing lane, whether it's just a deflection or an all out steal of the puck, is very good.

Don't be afraid of facts. Embrace them.
- Feanor

Yeah, suppose you missed the part where I've brought up what a player has done for most of his career and not just one season.

Yeah, suppose you missed the part where I've brought up what a player has done for most of his career and not just one season.
- roenick97

i get what you're saying, but ghost has done it all of his career

Did I just read Schultz is ahead of Ghost? I admittedly skimmed at warp speed when I saw the argument was about Ghost as a third pair d man.
- Mononoke

veasey, sheetz, and third pair ghost...if this comment section was a player it would be Ryan White

Sure. What about taking pucks away from opposing players, like creating turnovers while defending down low? Wrapping guys up against the boards? Is Ghost all situations and a legitimate top 4 by taking on the other team's top 6?
- roenick97

Can't get carried away, and look at every aspect. under a microscope If Gostisbehere had that physical aspect to his game, he'd be a potential #1 defenseman, and the Flyers would've never gotten him with a 3rd round pick. He is at a disadvantage physically in parts of the game, but he is also competitive there, and is not in any way a liability defensively. He has some weaknesses that teams are going to try and attack, but that is true of most defenseman.

its hard to take the puck away from opposing players when you already have it
- YuenglingJagr

There is going to be lots of ice time where Gostisbehere doesn't have the puck. He's making reasonable points, and just trying to have a conversation.