I'm not seeing your response to the comments you quoted and bolded. Am I supposed to?
- tomburton99

I think the bolded was answer enough.

Idk why people are still surprised by anything written by the laughable excuse for a hockey analyst known as James Tanner. Logic doesn't enter the equation in anything he says. Yesterday, the NHL MVP and Art Ross winner (by 18points) isn't even a Top 5 winger. Today, the Norris Trophy winner isn't even a Top 5 Dman in the NHL. Tanner's existence on this site, and especially every hot stove, is to say ridiculous things for clicks. Plain and simple. I watch the Senators often and Karlsson should play wing, his team would win more games.
- EnzoD

#logic

this argument is so old, so retarded, and only used by idiots who never actually watch him play.......
- sensarmy_11

Of course. It's just pure coincidence that the goals against the Sens skyrocket with him on the ice.

Every. Single. Year.

No love for Radko Gudas?

One thing that people don't realize is that unless the data is like crazily out of whack - which I think people would notice - then even big improvements would only have minor consequences. You're still talking probabilities and percentages and the problems (as they are called) with data collection I would think make very little actual impact.

You are right that teams have better or proprietary models that are theirs alone, and that is one of the problems with improving analytics, as people at the forefront of the movement aren't exactly getting together to compare notes.

However, I think both the problems with public data and team proprietary information are minor problems for people legitimately interested in the topic, while a major problem is that guys like MJL discredit the whole industry by saying "public stats r dum."
- James_Tanner

Those who say "public stats r dum", are misguided. But so are people like you, who think there is some magic stat or two that tells you all you need to know. CorsiRel (which seems to be the flavour of the day) is a very flawed stat, but certain posters and bloggers treat it like it's the ultimate determinant.

You're no better than him, just the other extreme side of the coin.

Of course. It's just pure coincidence that the goals against the Sens skyrocket with him on the ice.

Every. Single. Year.
- prock

Let it go. He plays nearly 30 minutes a game, always against the opposing teams best line and he is on the ice for nearly 50% of all even strength goals scored against the Senators. Duh.....what would you expect?

Idk why people are still surprised by anything written by the laughable excuse for a hockey analyst known as James Tanner. Logic doesn't enter the equation in anything he says. Yesterday, the NHL MVP and Art Ross winner (by 18points) isn't even a Top 5 winger. Today, the Norris Trophy winner isn't even a Top 5 Dman in the NHL. Tanner's existence on this site, and especially every hot stove, is to say ridiculous things for clicks. Plain and simple. I watch the Senators often and Karlsson should play wing, his team would win more games.
- EnzoD

Will the fact that he won the 2013-14 Norris trophy still be used as an argument in another 5 years?

Will the fact that he won the 2013-14 Norris trophy still be used as an argument in another 5 years?
- DeflatedPucks

he is talking about how Tanner didn't put doughty in his top 5 list even though he won the norris this year. same with how he didn't put kane in his top 5 even though he won the art ross and hart.

he is talking about how Tanner didn't put doughty in his top 5 list even though he won the norris this year. same with how he didn't put kane in his top 5 even though he won the art ross and hart.
- martox

Oh haha I thought he was talking about how Tanner's list didn't have Duncan Keith in the top 5. Maybe I confused him with "GoBucky"

Let it go. He plays nearly 30 minutes a game, always against the opposing teams best line and he is on the ice for nearly 50% of all even strength goals scored against the Senators. Duh.....what would you expect?
- spatso

It's not surprising a Sens fan Karlsson fanboi is trying to claim that Karlsson plays 100% of his time against top lines.

If you just "let go" of the fact that Karlsson is completely ineffective at stopping the opposition from scoring, he's a great dman!

Not even an honorable mention by anyone for Suter

As always most fall in love with offensive statistics, Karlsson has so much talent but the brain is the problem he, OEL , I'll even throw Subban in there, without the puck to many times for my liking get caught out of position

For me it's
Doughty
Hedman(age)
Keith
Suter
Pietrangelo

To me these are defensive players who play great defense without the puck, Byfuglien gets an honorable mention, Lindholm top 5

It's not surprising a Sens fan Karlsson fanboi is trying to claim that Karlsson plays 100% of his time against top lines.
- prock

Prock... cmon' no one beleives your nonsense, because they know you hate Karlsson, and unfortunately, I don't think logic will ever change that. Fans like you have been opposing superstars that are leaps ahead of everyone else in what they do, since the beginning of the sport. Also common for the best players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin... and the list goes on. Karlsson is leaps and bounds ahead of any other defense in puck carrying exits from the defensive zone and carrying offensive entries. That's what makes efficient and effective defending and also what generates offense for the team. That is the number 1 job of a defense and that's not even debatable. He is the faster defense to close gaps between offense and defense because he has the best speed and agility. That's how the league has evolved since the last lockout. After noticing benifits that Karlsson brings on the table, all teams have been drafting for these types of defenders in the hope they can eventually play a similar style of hockey. Ex. Toronto with Reilly, PHX with OEL...

Not even an honorable mention by anyone for Suter

As always most fall in love with offensive statistics, Karlsson has so much talent but the brain is the problem he, OEL , I'll even throw Subban in there, without the puck to many times for my liking get caught out of position

For me it's
Doughty
Hedman(age)
Keith
Suter
Pietrangelo

To me these are defensive players who play great defense without the puck, Byfuglien gets an honorable mention, Lindholm top 5

- BetweenTheDots

Brain? You mean yours? Karlsson hockey IQ is above all in the position, that's why he reached 60 assists.

Prock... cmon' no one beleives your nonsense, because they know you hate Karlsson, and unfortunately, I don't think logic will ever change that. Fans like you have been opposing superstars that are leaps ahead of everyone else in what they do, since the beginning of the sport. Also common for the best players like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin... and the list goes on. Karlsson is leaps and bounds ahead of any other defense in puck carrying exits from the defensive zone and carrying offensive entries. That's what makes efficient and effective defending and also what generates offense for the team. That is the number 1 job of a defense and that's not even debatable. He is the faster defense to close gaps between offense and defense because he has the best speed and agility. That's how the league has evolved since the last lockout. After noticing benifits that Karlsson brings on the table, all teams have been drafting for these types of defenders in the hope they can eventually play a similar style of hockey. Ex. Toronto with Reilly, PHX with OEL...
- PtotheY

You mean logic like "Karlsson plays all his time against the top line"?

Yeah, good luck with that changing my mind.

the point of defending is to stop the other team from scoring. Karlsson is not effective at that. That's a fact.

Let it go. He plays nearly 30 minutes a game, always against the opposing teams best line and he is on the ice for nearly 50% of all even strength goals scored against the Senators. Duh.....what would you expect?
- spatso

Yeah.... The argument is he drives offense which equates to better defense. The problem is his offense is offset by the terrible defense when he is on the ice. He also takes the majority of starts in the ozone. He has never had a season where the majority of his starts are in the dzone. The guy was a ppg player but still a minus this year despite 55% of his starts in the ozone. I get it his has possible the best skating stride in the NHL. Has tons of offensive talent but his D is average at best. Of that 29 mins of ice time he spends almost 4.5 min on the PP. So your argument does not really hold that much water. He only spends about 1.2 mins on the PK a game.

Everyone likes to overrate gaudy offensive numbers. Offensive D men are the hot thing nowadays. Still appauled he has a Norris. Glorified forward who plays some D.

Brain? You mean yours? Karlsson hockey IQ is above all in the position, that's why he reached 60 assists.
- PtotheY

If you were building a team from that would eliminate 30 plus year old d men (Keith, Weber et)
Karlsson Letang
Doughty Subban
Ekblad Hedmen
Pieterangelo

Would be my 7

Karlsson might score 100 points with Letang as his partner!!!!

You mean logic like "Karlsson plays all his time against the top line"?

Yeah, good luck with that changing my mind.

the point of defending is to stop the other team from scoring. Karlsson is not effective at that. That's a fact.
- prock

Actually, the point of hockey is to score more goals than the other team, which Karlsson is very effective at, and that is more important than defending. No need to defend when the puck is in the offensive zone, creating scoring chances the majority of the time.

EDIT: by very effective, I mean the best at his position.

Yeah.... The argument is he drives offense which equates to better defense. The problem is his offense is offset by the terrible defense when he is on the ice. He also takes the majority of starts in the ozone. He has never had a season where the majority of his starts are in the dzone. The guy was a ppg player but still a minus this year despite 55% of his starts in the ozone. I get it his has possible the best skating stride in the NHL. Has tons of offensive talent but his D is average at best. Of that 29 mins of ice time he spends almost 4.5 min on the PP. So your argument does not really hold that much water. He only spends about 1.2 mins on the PK a game.

Everyone likes to overrate gaudy offensive numbers. Offensive D men are the hot thing nowadays. Still appauled he has a Norris. Glorified forward who plays some D.
- bhawks2241

Pretty sure you win hockey games by outscoring the other team...

If you were building a team from that would eliminate 30 plus year old d men (Keith, Weber et)
Karlsson Letang
Doughty Subban
Ekblad Hedmen
Pieterangelo

Would be my 7

Karlsson might score 100 points with Letang as his partner!!!!
- Brianandr1

Actually they both play Similar games, Karlsson is just better at it. They might class. Not enough puck to go around.

Actually, the point of hockey is to score more goals than the other team, which Karlsson is very effective at, and that is more important than defending. No need to defend when the puck is in the offensive zone, creating scoring chances the majority of the time.

EDIT: by very effective, I mean the best at his position.
- j.boyd919

yes, and by scoring more than the opposition, you have to contribute to goals for, and contribute to inhibiting goals against.

Karlsson only does one of those well. He is only effective at half of "scoring more than the other team". Just half.

This whole idea that "when you always have the puck, they can't score on you" is spouted out by pure idiots, who don't seem to piece together that one single player in the entire NHL was on the ice when his team had the puck more than 60% of the time. This idea that you don't have to defend when you have the puck, doesn't make the ability to defend irrelevant for a single player in the entire NHL.

You mean logic like "Karlsson plays all his time against the top line"?

Yeah, good luck with that changing my mind.

the point of defending is to stop the other team from scoring. Karlsson is not effective at that. That's a fact.
- prock

defenders have changed the way the posistion is played. playing defender in this day and age often means you have to be good at offense too. karlsson is not GREAT at defending but he is the best there is when it comes to offense at that posistion. karlsson is far from inept at defense like you try to make it sound.

Pretty sure you win hockey games by outscoring the other team...
- j.boyd919

yes, meaning you can't simply ignore stopping the other team from scoring. You'll never win that way.

defenders have changed the way the posistion is played.
- martox

Offensive defenders are nothing new. They've been around a while.

playing defender in this day and age often means you have to be good at offense too.
- martox

yes, to be a top defenseman, you have to contribute offense, that's true. You can't ignore defense though.

karlsson is not GREAT at defending
- martox

among the worst in the league, actually. Stats back that up.

but he is the best there is when it comes to offense at that posistion.
- martox

agreed

karlsson is far from inept at defense like you try to make it sound.
- martox

he's complete and utter garbage at defending.

1. Drew Doughty
2. Erik Karlsson
3. Alex Pietrangelo
4. Victor Hedman
5. Aaron Ekblad

I don't think Pietrangelo and Ekblad are underrated, because most people would have them in their Top 10, but I think the offense/reputation of some players (Weber, Subban) makes them a tad overrated IMO.

Not even an honorable mention by anyone for Suter

As always most fall in love with offensive statistics, Karlsson has so much talent but the brain is the problem he, OEL , I'll even throw Subban in there, without the puck to many times for my liking get caught out of position

For me it's
Doughty
Hedman(age)
Keith
Suter
Pietrangelo

To me these are defensive players who play great defense without the puck, Byfuglien gets an honorable mention, Lindholm top 5

- BetweenTheDots

I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.