I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.
- James_Tanner

No player, NOT A SINGLE PLAYER, in the entire NHL, does this enough to justify not being able to defend. Not one.

No player, NOT A SINGLE PLAYER, in the entire NHL, does this enough to justify not being able to defend. Not one.
- prock

Tanner Glass

I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.
- James_Tanner

I'd take Pietro.

Tanner Glass
- bulet13

Tanner Glass plays and is actually decent on the P.K. 5 on 5 and having the puck is a different story.

I'd take Pietro.
- tomburton99

You would take a tube of lube if it would block shots

Tanner Glass plays and is actually decent on the P.K. 5 on 5 and having the puck is a different story.
- tomburton99

"Tanner Glass plays" is a phrase no fan should ever have to hear

I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.
- James_Tanner

OEM is fantastic at getting shots on net half the time I don't know how he does it like he has eyes on his stick

BUT you do realize time of possession is based on a formula of shots on net etc etc not actual clocked time of possession so with OEM's ability to get shots on goal same with Karlsson sure their stats are going to look better when it comes to corsi

Pietro is solid as a defender and always gets top line duty I watch hockey browse advanced stats, I wonder sometimes if you even watch hockey games or watch clips and go to your advanced stats

OEM is fantastic at getting shots on net half the time I don't know how he does it like he has eyes on his stick

BUT you do realize time of possession is based on a formula of shots on net etc etc not actual clocked time of possession so with OEM's ability to get shots on goal same with Karlsson sure their stats are going to look better when it comes to corsi

Pietro is solid as a defender and always gets top line duty I watch hockey browse advanced stats, I wonder sometimes if you even watch hockey games or watch clips and go to your advanced stats
- BetweenTheDots

CORSI is shot attempts, not shots on goal.

This is another problem with some of the advanced stats. Half the people don't even know what they mean, and what they're measuring.

You would take a tube of lube if it would block shots
- bulet13

He's 26 with five 35+ point seasons. He's a good player.

You mean logic like "Karlsson plays all his time against the top line"?

Yeah, good luck with that changing my mind.

the point of defending is to stop the other team from scoring. Karlsson is not effective at that. That's a fact.
- prock

You acutally think Josi is better? I already gave you sound logic why is the best D and why most have him slotted there. And yes, the fact that he also plays the most minutes of all NHL Dmen should give him more leverage of goals against when he is on ice, because more time equals more opportunities. Of course, being top pairing he will play agaist better players, that can be said of most first pairing Ds. Point. Use your head.

You acutally think Josi is better? I already gave you sound logic why is the best D and why most have him slotted there. And yes, the fact that he also plays the most minutes of all NHL Dmen should give him more leverage of goals against when he is on ice, because more time equals more opportunities. Of course, being top pairing he will play agaist better players, that can be said of most first pairing Ds. Point. Use your head.
- PtotheY

You didn't give any sound logic whatsoever.

"Puck carrying exits are the number one responsibility". Jesus christ, I know you fanbois are dead set on ignoring 100% every bit of play when the other team has the puck, but THAT'S NEARLY 50% OF THE PLAY, sometimes more, for every damn player in the NHL.

You're "logic" completely ignores what a player does for half the game. If you can't see why that is completely idiotic, you're beyond help.

And you're statements about "playing more against top players" seems to always change depending on the argument. Whenever someone points out his favourable deployment, it's always "he plays so much, he gets plenty of every scenario". Now it's "no no, it's always against the top line".

That's so easily refuted, it's ridiculous you're trying to make that claim. His Qualcomp stats are middle of the pack.

Offensive defenders are nothing new. They've been around a while.



yes, to be a top defenseman, you have to contribute offense, that's true. You can't ignore defense though.



among the worst in the league, actually. Stats back that up.



agreed



he's complete and utter garbage at defending.
- prock

Can you show me the stats that back that up?

Can you show me the stats that back that up?
- j.boyd919

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

so, with him on the ice, goals against the Sens rise dramatically

http://stats.hockeyanalys...s&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...s&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

for a defenseman that gets among the cushiest zone deployment in the league.

So, you can say he has a high rate of getting it out of his own zone. But he also has a VERY high rate of starting in the offensive zone, only to have the other team move it up ice past him, and into the Sens net.

In short, he is among the best offensive d in the league (won't argue that), but that comes at the expense of his defense, of which, he is among the worst in the league.

Pretty sure you win hockey games by outscoring the other team...
- j.boyd919

Thank Karlsson was a -2. So what is your point?

I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.
- James_Tanner

I also have to point out that Hitchcock thought the same thing, in the playoffs Pietrangelo took the most shifts when the puck was dropped in the defensive zone.

I have to admit as well the Pens have a nice player in Dumoulin I can see why he took the most defensive zone draws.

I know plus minus is considered irrelevant, but considering at even strength, you have difference makers or the best defenseman in the game ending up with minus something at the end of the year which means all those points they scored at even strength are irrelevant since while on the ice they gave up more, so how much of a difference maker are they.

Now if I wanted a defenseman on my first unit power play, all day I would take Karlsson, OEM, Subban

Thank Karlsson was a -2. So what is your point?
- bhawks2241

+\- is an awful stat. If that's your basis for making that judgement, we're done here

Actually, the point of hockey is to score more goals than the other team, which Karlsson is very effective at, and that is more important than defending. No need to defend when the puck is in the offensive zone, creating scoring chances the majority of the time.

EDIT: by very effective, I mean the best at his position.
- j.boyd919

I think Karlsson's defensive woes are overblown, goals scored against is a team issue, not just one player. I think Karlsson is an average defender. Karlsson has to spend plenty of time defending. He was 6th in the league in ES scoring with 56 points which is phenomenal for a defenseman, yet he was -2 for the season.

+\- is an awful stat. If that's your basis for making that judgement, we're done here
- j.boyd919

It's not an awful stat if you use it for what it says.

I refuse to waste any more time explaining how when you keep the other team from having the puck, it's better than the best defense, but I just want to say that it's crazy to crazy to write what you did and then add in Pietrangelo's name to your list. He's way worse than either guy you mentioned at defense.
- James_Tanner

Karlsson's CF% at 5 on 5 last season was 51.5%

Again, most infatuated with a guy that is all offense and is only a bit above average defensively. He isn't the best Dman in the league. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be in my top five and I actually like Ottawa after Pittsburgh.

Again, most infatuated with a guy that is all offense and is only a bit above average defensively. He isn't the best Dman in the league. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be in my top five and I actually like Ottawa after Pittsburgh.
- Oneonta Penguin

Mmmok!

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

so, with him on the ice, goals against the Sens rise dramatically

http://stats.hockeyanalys...s&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalys...s&sort=DZPCT&sortdir=DESC

for a defenseman that gets among the cushiest zone deployment in the league.

So, you can say he has a high rate of getting it out of his own zone. But he also has a VERY high rate of starting in the offensive zone, only to have the other team move it up ice past him, and into the Sens net.

In short, he is among the best offensive d in the league (won't argue that), but that comes at the expense of his defense, of which, he is among the worst in the league.
- prock

Stats can be bent to prove anything you want. So you have to look at productivity as something tha you can't really bend. Everything else is mainly debated with talent and watching hockey games. I don't mind advanced stats, but your argument is reaching far to try to discredit the best D that most NHL critics, that know more hockey than you and I, have been saying for the last 4 years.

Stats can be bent to prove anything you want. So you have to look at productivity as something tha you can't really bend. Everything else is mainly debated with talent and watching hockey games. I don't mind advanced stats, but your argument is reaching far to try to discredit the best D that most NHL critics, that know more hockey than you and I, have been saying for the last 4 years.
- PtotheY

bahahahahah, productivity eh?

The Sens get scored on with him on the ice a LOT. True or false?
The Sens get scored on with him on the ice at a FAR faster pace than when he is on the bench. True or false?
The Sens have gotten scored at with him on the ice at a far faster pace when he is on the ice for several years now. True or false?
He gets the smallest ratio of defensive zone faceoffs of all Sens Dmen. True or false?

If you're going to try to reference stats regarding him being good at moving things up the ice, you can't simply disregard the stats that show opposing teams move the puck up the ice against him just as easily, if not moreso, than he moves the puck up the ice against them.

But that's the MO of Sens fans, and Karlsson fanbois.

- "omg omg look at his points"
- "sure, but the teams he plays score in spades against him too"
- " no no, not his fault, even though it only happens to the Sens when he is on the ice, year after year, after year, after year"

Keep sticking your head in the sand, and we'll keep watching the Sens get nowhere with their star dman that scores lots of points, but doesn't win games.

bahahahahah, productivity eh?

The Sens get scored on with him on the ice a LOT. True or false?
The Sens get scored on with him on the ice at a FAR faster pace than when he is on the bench. True or false?
The Sens have gotten scored at with him on the ice at a far faster pace when he is on the ice for several years now. True or false?
He gets the smallest ratio of defensive zone faceoffs of all Sens Dmen. True or false?

If you're going to try to reference stats regarding him being good at moving things up the ice, you can't simply disregard the stats that show opposing teams move the puck up the ice against him just as easily, if not moreso, than he moves the puck up the ice against them.

But that's the MO of Sens fans, and Karlsson fanbois.

- "omg omg look at his points"
- "sure, but the teams he plays score in spades against him too"
- " no no, not his fault, even though it only happens to the Sens when he is on the ice, year after year, after year, after year"

Keep sticking your head in the sand, and we'll keep watching the Sens get nowhere with their star dman that scores lots of points, but doesn't win games.
- prock

You are entertaining to say the least. There is absolutely no stats that can measure if the goals are his fault, he plays over 30 minutes per game... one of the most in the NHL and he's played that many minutes for a few seasons now. So to say that goals against are far worst when he is on the ice, is a shortsided stat to look at, just based on logic. But you you've shown that you do not know the definition of logic. You can bend stats the way you want, what a full Sens game before even saying such bigottery.

You are entertaining to say the least. There is absolutely no stats that can measure if the goals are his fault, he plays over 30 minutes per game... one of the most in the NHL and he's played that many minutes for a few seasons now. So to say that goals against are far worst when he is on the ice, is a shortsided stat to look at, just based on logic. But you you've shown that you do not know the definition of logic. You can bend stats the way you want, what a full Sens game before even saying such bigottery.


- PtotheY

Bahhahaha. Nope, just total coincidence that when he's on the ice, the Sens get scored on at a must faster pace, right? total coincidence.

I've never seen a group of fools with their heads buried so far in the sand.