Oh, and

1-5: Shayne Gostisbehere

Karlsson's "lack of defense" hasn't carried any weight since about 2011. At worst he's average defensively. He's not some shutdown defender who runs around throwing booming checks, but his defensive positioning, decision-making, and sticks skills are average or above average. Combined with his offensive abilities, he's much closer to Brian Leetch than Paul Coffey.
- jmatchett383

If the Sens-Habs series of 2015 thought me anything... is that Karlsson is a dominating player on the ice... seriously he was so god damn good it was enfuriating... he completely outplayed Subban and everyone else on the Ice.

I really don't know why people call him bad defensively... to me he's as effective as it gets since he usually ends up with the puck or makes a great play so it doesn't stay in his own zone.... kinda like how Lidstrom was doing it...

Needless to say, I'm now a Karlsson fan.

Karlsson's "lack of defense" hasn't carried any weight since about 2011. At worst he's average defensively. He's not some shutdown defender who runs around throwing booming checks, but his defensive positioning, decision-making, and sticks skills are average or above average. Combined with his offensive abilities, he's much closer to Brian Leetch than Paul Coffey.
- jmatchett383

Yes, it sure does carry weight.

Every single year, the Sens get scored on in bunches with him on the ice. They were a top 10 team in terms of goals against without him on the ice this year. They were far, far worse than even Edmonton, the worst defensive team in the entire league, with him on the ice.

This happens year, after year, after year.

You think that's just coincidence?

In no particular order, Hedman, Doughty, Keith, Letang, OEL

Hey now, that is certainly possible.
- BatFan88

Chris Pronger wins the first Norris in Coyotes history this upcoming season possible, sure

no gardiner from Tamsy?
- DDM-Coga

Hey I may love Jake Gardiner, but I'm not gonna look you in the eye and call him a top five defenseman. Though you might want to have a look-see at this badboy

http://public.tableau.com...9BCNJP?:display_count=yes


Then consider who plays on a worse team with worse players and wasn't his teams' first offensive option.

yes, both Lindholm and Klingberg have been in the league for years and years, it's crazy
- jimbro83

What does that have anything to do with it. Klingberg has played 2 seasons, and Lindholm for 3 seasons. So when I say years, it is in fact correct...multiple seasons.

Are you related to Klingberg or something?

I get it, you wanna be cool and edgy and say Hampus Lindholm, but how is he better than John Klingberg?
- jimbro83

To start with, he's met his own goalie.

2 Norris Trophies and a Conn Smythe in the last 6 years...there's nothing questionable or shocking about putting him on a top 5 Dman list. It's absurd not to have him on the list!
- GoBucky

Well, this isn't a "top-5 of the last 6 years list" or else I'd be putting Lidstrom on it. It's top-5 right now. As of this moment, I don't belive he's top-5. But as I said, I think top-5 has merit. I find top-2, at this moment, questionable.

also to note - PK 51 points in a down year playing for a team that averaged 0.1 goals per game.

this is one of those "he was drafted 6th overall so that automatically makes him great" things
- jimbro83

Lindholm is actually really good. But, top 5 in the NHL ? Not yet.

What does that have anything to do with it. Klingberg has played 2 seasons, and Lindholm for 3 seasons. So when I say years, it is in fact correct...multiple seasons.

Are you related to Klingberg or something?
- DDM-Coga

actually everyone who voted for Klingberg for the Norris last year and landed him in 6th place in the voting is his brother

Hey I may love Jake Gardiner, but I'm not gonna look you in the eye and call him a top five defenseman. Though you might want to have a look-see at this badboy

http://public.tableau.com...9BCNJP?:display_count=yes


Then consider who plays on a worse team with worse players and wasn't his teams' first offensive option.
- James_Tanner

now compare him to Barrie Keith and Barrie have very simliar charts yet he is JJs 2nd best dman in the league.

barrie for Norris

now compare him to Barrie
- DDM-Coga

are you Barrie's mom?

Chris Pronger wins the first Norris in Coyotes history this upcoming season possible, sure
- bulet13

I saw him working out, he looks good. Slapshot is a strong as ever!

Really though, you don't think Jack has any chance to be a top player in this league...

Duncan keith is still good, but if he's still cracking the top ten it's near the bottom because in addition to the five guys I listed, there is Muzzin, Doughty, Letang, Vlasic and Burns who are all superior.


He just isn't as effective as he was several years ago, which should surprise no one as he is 33.
- James_Tanner

What do you base that opinion on? Several years ago? He just won the Conn Smythe in 2015. He has not lost a step. Still some of the quickest feet and pivots in the game. Also is probably one of the most physically fit NHL D men. Offensive production has not fallen off either.

Letang Muzzin Burns and Vlasic really? Keith will likely be on Team Canada's top pairing for the World Cup. Guess you know better....

Keith is top 5 for sure. He's all world all olympic all cups all team. He's probably winding down now but none of those guys have a similar resume to him. Anyone putting TJ Brodie in their top 5 should be laughed off this site.

Karlsson
Hedman
Keith
Doughty
Burns

This shouldn't be surprising. I'd put Doughty at #7. Do you know how much difference there is between the second best and the seventh best NHL defenseman? Barely any.

The NHL is made up of the best of the best of the best. And the difference between non-elite players and players who are career AHLers is infinitesimally small.

The difference between Doughty's stats and say OEL's are basically nothing. It comes down to the fact that OEL is my favorite player and Doughty is probably Jay's.
- James_Tanner

So, it's bias then? OK

At creating goals? For both teams?
- prock

You obviously don't watch hockey. He's not only the best d in the leauge, he is arguably in the top 5 NHLer's.

You obviously don't watch hockey. He's not only the best d in the leauge, he is arguably in the top 5 NHLer's.
- PtotheY

they're just mad they dont have erik karlsson on their team

I saw him working out, he looks good. Slapshot is a strong as ever!

Really though, you don't think Jack has any chance to be a top player in this league...
- BatFan88

top player in the league, no

potentially top player for a season that allows him to win MVP, yes

actually everyone who voted for Klingberg for the Norris last year and landed him in 6th place in the voting is his brother
- jimbro83

Sweet, he got some Norris votes. same as Beauchemin last year to rank him tied for 20th in norris voting.

I wouldnt say norris voting year to year is the best measuring stick

top player in the league, no

potentially top player for a season that allows him to win MVP, yes
- bulet13

That sounds like Giroux...and Eichel will be much, much better than Giroux

Yes, it sure does carry weight.

Every single year, the Sens get scored on in bunches with him on the ice. They were a top 10 team in terms of goals against without him on the ice this year. They were far, far worse than even Edmonton, the worst defensive team in the entire league, with him on the ice.

This happens year, after year, after year.

You think that's just coincidence?
- prock

You know there are 5 players on the ice, right? Anyways;

You know the entire time NSH had Suter and Weber, they finished in the bottom half in GA every year until 12/13, right? Strange, they got so much praise, yet they were a top-10 team in goals against almost every year with them.

You think that's just a coincidence?

Yes, it sure does carry weight.

Every single year, the Sens get scored on in bunches with him on the ice. They were a top 10 team in terms of goals against without him on the ice this year. They were far, far worse than even Edmonton, the worst defensive team in the entire league, with him on the ice.

This happens year, after year, after year.

You think that's just coincidence?
- prock

No, I don't. Because like all players, even Ray Bourque and any other offensively dominating defenseman besides Bobby Orr, they have to play on an edge because, in the long run, the chances they take usually turn out for the best.

If Karlsson sacrificed his offense, he'd still be a legit top-4 defenseman based on his skill. That's not the case, and he has to push the envelope. The theory is that pushing that envelope will result in more goals for than gaffes which result in goals against.

I'm not sure if I'm conveying this right. Basically, he's going to take some chances where he gets burned, but that's based more on him trying to create offensive, not inability to play defense. Years ago, he was a purely offensive defenseman. After watching him the last few seasons, that's no longer the case.

In other news, the Flyers have no goaltending, Ovechkin's lost his game, and Pittsburgh will never win again with so much salary tied up in Crosby, Malkin, MAF, and Letang.