Any corsi based stat for an individual player, is suspect. It is a team stat, and not an individual stat.
- MJL

Agreed.

It takes a serious degree of idiocy to not see that.

Honestly, I have no clue had Pittsburgh does it either.
- j.boyd919

According to general fanager they have 9 guys on ELCs, going to get interesting over the next few season though. They really need to turn the page and find a taker for Fleurys contract.

What if it was broken down into a Line or Pairing stat?
- j.boyd919

I honestly don't see how it is any different than +/- in that regard.

At least +/- is measuring actual scoring difference. Until we start determining the outcome of games by Shots Towards the Goal, then I would argue +/- is actually better.

I honestly don't see how it is any different than +/- in that regard.

At least +/- is measuring actual scoring difference. Until we start determining the outcome of games by Shots Towards the Goal, then I would argue +/- is actually better.
- Aetherial

+/- ticks change depending on PP/PK. That's why I don't like +/-. I prefer overall goal differential, PP goal differential, and PK goal differential in that regards. Much like corsi, I think +/- can be a good first indicator of how a player plays, but you always have to dig deeper to get a better look.

Honestly, I have no clue had Pittsburgh does it either.
- j.boyd919

Doesn't hurt that we pay some of it.

+/- ticks change depending on PP/PK. That's why I don't like +/-. I prefer overall goal differential, PP goal differential, and PK goal differential in that regards. Much like corsi, I think +/- can be a good first indicator of how a player plays, but you always have to dig deeper to get a better look.
- j.boyd919

what does this mean?

What if it was broken down into a Line or Pairing stat?
- j.boyd919

I don't know how they could do that. Hopefully, in the future, they come up with a way for better data collection. Then the we'll have much better stats to work with.

what does this mean?
- Garnie

If you score on the PP, you don't get a +, if you get scored on while on the PK you don't get a -

If you score on the PP, you don't get a +, if you get scored on while on the PK you don't get a -
- j.boyd919

Corsi's all 5v5...so is plus/minus...you don't want a + or a minus if you're pking or pping.

Corsi's all 5v5...so is plus/minus...you don't want a + or a minus if you're pking or pping.
- Garnie

Not always, you can look at all situations corsi, 5v5, 5v4, 4v5, etc. fairly easily on hockey analysis

Corsi's all 5v5...so is plus/minus...you don't want a + or a minus if you're pking or pping.
- Garnie

You do get a + if you score on the PK though.
A good indicator of how flawed of a stat +/- is was Ovechkins 2013-24 season. He finished a -35 and everyone lost their minds, but the guy had 25 PP goals and 39 PP points, who would turn down that kind of production over a bad +/-.

I don't know how they could do that. Hopefully, in the future, they come up with a way for better data collection. Then the we'll have much better stats to work with.
- MJL

http://nullisecund.us/nhl/toi.php?id=2015030415

Nullisecund.us tracks every shift, and there are already event logs out there, so it'd just take some formula or some super nerd to calculate/log everything....actually Corsica.hockey has a line combo tab..

http://www.corsica.hockey/combos/

EDIT: but I don't think they have one for D pairings.

You do get a + if you score on the PK though.
A good indicator of how flawed of a stat +/- is was Ovechkins 2013-24 season. He finished a -35 and everyone lost their minds, but the guy had 25 PP goals and 39 PP points, who would turn down that kind of production over a bad +/-.
- smellmyfinger

exactly why i dislike +/-

You do get a + if you score on the PK though.
A good indicator of how flawed of a stat +/- is was Ovechkins 2013-24 season. He finished a -35 and everyone lost their minds, but the guy had 25 PP goals and 39 PP points, who would turn down that kind of production over a bad +/-.
- smellmyfinger

They missed the playoffs and brought in a new coach who explained to Ovie he needed to play D too. Sure the production is great...but not if you're losing games...great to score 2 goals...but if your play allows the other team to score 3 while your on the ice....is that the production you want? Not saying it's all his fault but he doesnt get a free pass just because he scores.

You do get a + if you score on the PK though.
A good indicator of how flawed of a stat +/- is was Ovechkins 2013-24 season. He finished a -35 and everyone lost their minds, but the guy had 25 PP goals and 39 PP points, who would turn down that kind of production over a bad +/-.
- smellmyfinger

Yes, people point that out, and they are not wrong in that it doesn't tell the whole story.

I would counter with, go have a look at the rankings of CF60 or CF Rel Team.

Is it any better?

Is Patrick Kane 96th in the league at "Driving Possession"

... and I love when Tanner tells me to research because apparently Corsi has never been used to show who is "driving possession"


The most hilarious part, is this whole discussion about Taylor Hall, who was like 98th or something in CF60 last year (or one of those stats anyway). The best I have seen his was CorsiF% rel tm players over 1000 minutes, where he ranked 51.

You do get a + if you score on the PK though.
A good indicator of how flawed of a stat +/- is was Ovechkins 2013-24 season. He finished a -35 and everyone lost their minds, but the guy had 25 PP goals and 39 PP points, who would turn down that kind of production over a bad +/-.
- smellmyfinger

getting a plus while killing a penalty isnt a flaw IMO.

exactly why i dislike +/-
- j.boyd919

Again, that's a fair statement.

Look at any Corsi or Fenwick ranking for any year and tell me you should use those stats for anything except to laugh at the proponents.

I honestly don't see how it is any different than +/- in that regard.

At least +/- is measuring actual scoring difference. Until we start determining the outcome of games by Shots Towards the Goal, then I would argue +/- is actually better.
- Aetherial

Plus Minus is a terrible stat, I can't believe we're still doing this.

It's based off goals which are rare and random, making any conclusions based on it meaningless.

Shots are better because there is approximately 10 or 12 shots for every goal, so you can get a huge sample size rather quickly, making your conclusions much more likely to be accurate.

There are a lot of things we can argue about, this isn't one of them.

It's not my opinion that plus/minus is a bad stat: it's a mathematical certainty.

Again, that's a fair statement.

Look at any Corsi or Fenwick ranking for any year and tell me you should use those stats for anything except to laugh at the proponents.
- Aetherial

OK, read this and realized my last comment was pointless. All the stuff you guys are saying here about team stats, about plus minus and the flaws in corsi that supposedly ruin any conclusions about QOC are seriously whack.

How come every time I shoot down these stats, like I have been for years, I get told that I either don't understand or that "that stat is no longer used".

Does that mean I get a win for all the past arguments I had against these idiots?

Also, Corsi stuff still shows up in Hero charts.

I don't know how they could do that. Hopefully, in the future, they come up with a way for better data collection. Then the we'll have much better stats to work with.
- MJL

You have no idea. The data being collected is fine, and since huge sample sizes are the goal of all statisticians any improvements would be extremely marketable.

This one of those things cynical people say because it sounds good, but it's full on ridiculous.

Honestly MLJ, I have no idea, even to this day if you are serious or the ultimate troll.

getting a plus while killing a penalty isnt a flaw IMO.
- Garnie

One could argue that you deserve more credit that just 1 plus as it's even harder to score when short handed

Yes, people point that out, and they are not wrong in that it doesn't tell the whole story.

I would counter with, go have a look at the rankings of CF60 or CF Rel Team.

Is it any better?

Is Patrick Kane 96th in the league at "Driving Possession"

... and I love when Tanner tells me to research because apparently Corsi has never been used to show who is "driving possession"


The most hilarious part, is this whole discussion about Taylor Hall, who was like 98th or something in CF60 last year.
- Aetherial

When people talk about "driving" possession, they mean a player whose WOWY s (with you without you) numbers are good. So if every player who plays with Taylor Hall receives a significant bump, then we know that the added value of him is that you can play him with pretty much anyone and those guys turn into top line players.

One could argue that you deserve more credit that just 1 plus as it's even harder to score when short handed
- Redmile247

sure +2 or +5 it doesnt happen enough to worry about IMO.

Plus Minus is a terrible stat, I can't believe we're still doing this.

It's based off goals which are rare and random, making any conclusions based on it meaningless.

Shots are better because there is approximately 10 or 12 shots for every goal, so you can get a huge sample size rather quickly, making your conclusions much more likely to be accurate.

There are a lot of things we can argue about, this isn't one of them.

It's not my opinion that plus/minus is a bad stat: it's a mathematical certainty.
- JTanner

Re: the first bolded... Lets have a little draft style pool based on goals and assist. I will pick my own players, yours can be randomly selected.

Re: the second bolded... Go look at Corsi Rel Tm, or any Corsi or Fenwick. Do the players rankings line up with the players likely to score goals? If the model fails, even once, then it should be questioned. If it epic-ly fails, multiple times, then it should be thrown away.

Re: the third bolded... Mathematical certainty? Holy crap. There is so much wrong with your last statement I don't even know where to begin. It is laughable.

You CONSTANTLY call your opinions facts, and everyone else's counter argument stupid.

You should be relieved when I call you a troll because if I accept that you are serious with a statement like that, then the alternative conclusion is much worse.

Patrick Kane... Go look at his Corsi stats last year. I can pick multiple players from ANY year that are ranked in dumb positions. I rest my case.