So it's the team around the guy playing almost half the game? Why isn't Risto helping the 5 on 5 scoring? Why is the #1 d man not helping the PK, why is he just a passenger instead of a driver?

I can think of another guy who had some great point totals his first few years, but had red flags. Dion Phaneuf.
- sbroads24

His underlying numbers are for the most part significantly better with mccabe. The guy from THN who runs a combined score effects chart had Ristolainen ranked high enough that would suggest he's top pairing material. That's going from Gorges to McCabe(who isn't top pair material).

I assume if his partner went from mccabe to insert top pairing guy here, his numbers take that next leap to. All it tells me is that he's not elite in the sense that he can drive possession for his pairing (carry the other guy) but defenitely good enough to be part of a top pair that doesn't play just an insane amount of minutes.

The phaneuf comparison is just nuts though, he's flat out bad especially at 7 mil.

His underlying numbers are for the most part significantly better with mccabe. The guy from THN who runs a combined score effects chart had Ristolainen ranked high enough that would suggest he's top pairing material. That's going from Gorges to McCabe(who isn't top pair material).

I assume if his partner went from mccabe to insert top pairing guy here, his numbers take that next leap to. All it tells me is that he's not elite in the sense that he can drive possession for his pairing (carry the other guy) but defenitely good enough to be part of a top pair that doesn't play just an insane amount of minutes.

The phaneuf comparison is just nuts though, he's flat out bad especially at 7 mil.
- Sabresfan-365

And yet, he does play an insane amount of minutes and he's only a minus 2 on one of the worst 5-on-five teams. So what is this really telling us, that he doesn't make Moulson, Gionta and DLO good when he plays with them? Not even 2004 chara could accomplish that

lehner is a bum because he cost us pick 21


fasching is an afterthought and he cost us mcnabb and picks 60 and 43


relax, lehner is fine

So Risto is now Dion Phanuef??

Jesus Christ
- Stripes77

No. He's not. He's Ristolainen. He's good. He's also not elite, unless we are judging strictly on point totals. Which would be very close minded

And yet, he does play an insane amount of minutes and he's only a minus 2 on one of the worst 5-on-five teams. So what is this really telling us, that he doesn't make Moulson, Gionta and DLO good when he plays with them? Not even 2004 chara could accomplish that
- jcragcrumple

I'm getting incredibly confused now.

For months I have been told we really aren't a bad team.

Now, we are so bad it's dragging Risto down.

Which is it?

His underlying numbers are for the most part significantly better with mccabe. The guy from THN who runs a combined score effects chart had Ristolainen ranked high enough that would suggest he's top pairing material. That's going from Gorges to McCabe(who isn't top pair material).

I assume if his partner went from mccabe to insert top pairing guy here, his numbers take that next leap to. All it tells me is that he's not elite in the sense that he can drive possession for his pairing (carry the other guy) but defenitely good enough to be part of a top pair that doesn't play just an insane amount of minutes.

The phaneuf comparison is just nuts though, he's flat out bad especially at 7 mil.
- Sabresfan-365

He gives up more shots per 60 with McCabe, than Gorges
His on ice Sv% is worse
They give up more scoring chances per 60 with McCabe

They are actually worse defensively, better offensively

I'm getting incredibly confused now.

For months I have been told we really aren't a bad team.

Now, we are so bad it's dragging Risto down.

Which is it?
- sbroads24

They suck

He gives up more shots per 60 with McCabe, than Gorges
His on ice Sv% is worse
They give up more scoring chances per 60 with McCabe

They are actually worse defensively, better offensively
- sbroads24

That's what you're going to get out of him though. No point pretending he's going to be some shut down guy. As long as that number stays high and they can get a more defensively sound player for that pairing i think it works.

I'm getting incredibly confused now.

For months I have been told we really aren't a bad team.

Now, we are so bad it's dragging Risto down.

Which is it?
- sbroads24

5-on-5 we don't score. I don't think anyone was saying - At any point this year - that we are good in that area.

This is a dumb conversation. If no one had access to advanced stats, everyone would look at what Risto has done this year and say "wow, that's a franchise defensemen." advanced stats let naysayers try to look smarter than everyone else, and it allows for negativity where it doesn't belong.

Risto is elite IMO. Maybe he's top 4 to you.

No. He's not. He's Ristolainen. He's good. He's also not elite, unless we are judging strictly on point totals. Which would be very close minded
- sbroads24

Just for giggles what does OEL's underlying numbers say?

I am not an advanced stat guy so I am curious.

Just for giggles what does OEL's underlying numbers say?

I am not an advanced stat guy so I am curious.
- Stripes77

Equally useless like ristolainen

Equally useless like ristolainen
- Sabresfan-365

But he is considered elite on a bad team right?

Just making sure

Just for giggles what does OEL's underlying numbers say?

I am not an advanced stat guy so I am curious.
- Stripes77

I was actually just going to start looking at those prior to taking off for lunch.

I was actually just going to start looking at those prior to taking off for lunch.
- TheSabresTaco

I figured I would pick him whom everyone on here would want on this team and since he plays on another bad team and has about the same point production to look at.

He does score more than Risto but still I was curious

But he is considered elite on a bad team right?

Just making sure
- Stripes77

That he's better than Ristolainen, even though he's on a way worse team.

His possession is better, 5 on 5 scoring is slightly better, and he carries the load like Risto does. He's actually having not a great year though

But this is why I can't justify the "elite" tag for Risto. Better players put up better numbers on worse teams.

That he's better than Ristolainen, even though he's on a way worse team.

His possession is better, 5 on 5 scoring is slightly better, and he carries the load like Risto does. He's actually having not a great year though

But this is why I can't justify the "elite" tag for Risto. Better players put up better numbers on worse teams.
- sbroads24

Playing the kind of minutes that Risto does?

Show me the top defensemen on all 30 teams that can play 35 minutes and not fall apart.

That he's better than Ristolainen, even though he's on a way worse team.

His possession is better, 5 on 5 scoring is slightly better, and he carries the load like Risto does. He's actually having not a great year though

But this is why I can't justify the "elite" tag for Risto. Better players put up better numbers on worse teams.
- sbroads24

What would those numbers be?

For the record, I think Risto has the ability to play at an elite level. His scoring right now is there, or as close as you can get to there. But the rest of the play suggests to me he's not there. Yet.

He gives up more shots per 60 with McCabe, than Gorges
His on ice Sv% is worse
They give up more scoring chances per 60 with McCabe

They are actually worse defensively, better offensively
- sbroads24

Advance stats have Georges as a top 10 dmen in the league per save%. Sometimes the eye test is worth more!

That he's better than Ristolainen, even though he's on a way worse team.

His possession is better, 5 on 5 scoring is slightly better, and he carries the load like Risto does. He's actually having not a great year though

But this is why I can't justify the "elite" tag for Risto. Better players put up better numbers on worse teams.
- sbroads24

Better like you would expect since he is a better player but numbers are still bad since he can't make up for the lack of talent, much like risto but a lesser extent.

Better like you would expect since he is a better player but numbers are still bad since he can't make up for the lack of talent, much like risto but a lesser extent.
- Sabresfan-365

This is why I am not a fan of advanced stats, here we have two advanced stat guys going back and forth about the same stats and they each think they mean different things.

For the record, I think Risto has the ability to play at an elite level. His scoring right now is there, or as close as you can get to there. But the rest of the play suggests to me he's not there. Yet.
- TheSabresTaco

Maybe he would be if he was only playing 20 minutes a night?

"Ristolainen stars in 'The Revenge of the Whipping Boys Part 2: Analytics Unleashed'"

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL.html

Maybe he would be if he was only playing 20 minutes a night?
- Pope of Pucks

I don't think play time has anything to do with it. Based on experience, the more you play the better you get. (at his age of development)

Here's one I love. Analytics suggest Mark Pysyk was the best defenseman on the team. Was that true?