Location: I'd do anything to get you humans out of my forest! Joined: 07.19.2015
Mar 10 @ 3:55 PM ET
It just seems so weird that he'd acquire Filppula and sell very little at the deadline then go ahead and trade assets to move up 5-10 spots. It's like why not just tank and get that pick?
I do worry that the young players will come quick and begin to make an impact leaving the Flyers in a position where they just never acquire that top young forward. I just don't want to see them floundering around in the playoffs like the Blues because they don't have that top forward who can score against elite teams. - PhillySportsGuy
Preach.
Market may have played a hand. It was BAD. But I also don't know if this team is truly awful enough to have finished bottom 5-7 or so where a guy like Vilardi or Petterson could probably go. And I would just love to add one to the pool. It's the missing ingredient. They may very well have finished in the same spot though tbh. Flip is a nice addition, and will matter way more next year in a full season, but there's too many issues up and down that he can't change, and he's no miracle worker anyway. I also feel that Hextall is just that type who is stubborn about giving it their all and never saying never, even if he's not stupid to give up assets to do so. He may not see it as mutually exclusive to trading up. He may also feel that we are already out of the top prospects phase........but we'll see.
If we don't trade up, I'm still OK with picking 10-13 on paper, even if they're a tier down. The way I see it, finishing more in the 14-17 range is where the real drop could happen. Glass half full.
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ Joined: 04.08.2012
Mar 10 @ 4:09 PM ET
Preach.
Market may have played a hand. It was BAD. But I also don't know if this team is truly awful enough to have finished bottom 5 or so where a guy like Vilardi or Petterson could probably go. And I would just love to add one to the pool. It's the missing ingredient. They may very well have finished in the same spot though tbh. Flip is a nice addition, and will matter way more next year in a full season, but there's too many issues up and down that he can't change, and he's no miracle worker anyway. I also feel that Hextall is just that type who is stubborn about giving it their all and never saying never, even if he's not stupid to give up assets to do so. He may not see it as mutually exclusive to trading up. He may also feel that we are already out of the top prospects phase........but we'll see.
If we don't trade up, I'm still OK with picking 10-13 on paper, even if they're a tier down. The way I see it, finishing more in the 14-17 range is where the real drop could happen. Glass half full. - Mononoke
I just look at the teams in our division and I feel like our forwards are so far away from theirs. Even with Konecny, Rubtsov, Lindblom, Vorobyov it's not even close IMO. You don't just need guys who can compete with those teams, you need guys who can beat those types of teams. Look at the Leafs. The Flyers will need to have a team able to matchup against Matthews, Marner and Nylander or some other team that beats them!
Market may have played a hand. It was BAD. But I also don't know if this team is truly awful enough to have finished bottom 5-7 or so where a guy like Vilardi or Petterson could probably go. And I would just love to add one to the pool. It's the missing ingredient. They may very well have finished in the same spot though tbh. Flip is a nice addition, and will matter way more next year in a full season, but there's too many issues up and down that he can't change, and he's no miracle worker anyway. I also feel that Hextall is just that type who is stubborn about giving it their all and never saying never, even if he's not stupid to give up assets to do so. He may not see it as mutually exclusive to trading up. He may also feel that we are already out of the top prospects phase........but we'll see.
If we don't trade up, I'm still OK with picking 10-13 on paper, even if they're a tier down. The way I see it, finishing more in the 14-17 range is where the real drop could happen. Glass half full. - Mononoke
Haven't we determined that you can only get top-end talent with a top-5 pick?
Location: I'd do anything to get you humans out of my forest! Joined: 07.19.2015
Mar 10 @ 4:27 PM ET
I just look at the teams in our division and I feel like our forwards are so far away from theirs. Even with Konecny, Rubtsov, Lindblom, Vorobyov it's not even close IMO. You don't just need guys who can compete with those teams, you need guys who can beat those types of teams. Look at the Leafs. The Flyers will need to have a team able to matchup against Matthews, Marner and Nylander or some other team that beats them! - PhillySportsGuy
And we are going to have maybe the scariest defense in the league that they need to beat, and that they don't have. Our offense will largely be driven by it. Provorov, Ghost, Myers, Sanheim, MacDonald. It's a fearsome bunch. Toronto has their own holes there, and those aren't easy to fix either. They're not swimming in elite defensive prospects. And those take a while to get and build around, longer than forwards. What other teams in the division? Columbus is much the same as us. So is Carolina. Good, not great forwards. Toronto could potentially have the best forward core in the league when we contend, along with Edmonton, but they're flawed rosters too at present.
It's just very possible we'll be a team with elite defensemen, elite goaltending, elite depth, with an interchangeable top 9/12 depth that is better than some teams' second lines..........but our top line is lesser on the star quality up front than some teams. That's ok. There's always a give and take. I'd just like to see a star forward, especially at center, to anchor it. It's doable. As always, I just worry if Hextall sees the current forward core as Cup caliber now and going forward. Because it looks a star short now, and it'll only get worse as our current ones age.
Location: Unleash the Peanuts, MB Joined: 10.16.2008
Mar 10 @ 4:37 PM ET
And we are going to have maybe the scariest defense in the league that they need to beat, and that they don't have. Our offense will largely be driven by it. Provorov, Ghost, Myers, Sanheim, MacDonald. It's a fearsome bunch. Toronto has their own holes there, and those aren't easy to fix either. They're not swimming in elite defensive prospects. And those take a while to get and build around, longer than forwards. What other teams in the division? Columbus is much the same as us. So is Carolina. Good, not great forwards. Toronto could potentially have the best forward core in the league when we contend, along with Edmonton, but they're flawed rosters too at present.
It's just very possible we'll be a team with elite defensemen, elite goaltending, elite depth, with an interchangeable top 9/12 depth that is better than some teams' second lines..........but our top line is lesser on the star quality up front than some teams. That's ok. There's always a give and take. I'd just like to see a star forward, especially at center, to anchor it. It's doable. As always, I just worry if Hextall sees the current forward core as Cup caliber now and going forward. Because it looks a star short now, and it'll only get worse as our current ones age. - Mononoke
Location: I'd do anything to get you humans out of my forest! Joined: 07.19.2015
Mar 10 @ 4:46 PM ET
Haven't we determined that you can only get top-end talent with a top-5 pick?
#It'sScience - jmatchett383
I understand you're obligated to make a straw man argument with a heaping of sarcasm, but compile me a list of what you would consider are league-wide 1Cs in recent years and where they were drafted. Wingers are definitely more variable, but even then, top talent rises to the top and that's where you maximize your chances of finding one.
Is it possible to find 1Cs outside the top 5-10? Sure. It's just a lot less common. They are the most known quantity of any prospect position at draft day. The entire point in picking high isn't to guarantee anything. It's to increase the odds of it happening and not be a slave to rare instances and slim chances that may never deliver. I'll always take my chances with a coin flip over a raffle. And I don't want a high # pick for a high # pick's sake. I care about the player picked. Notice I name names because that's specifically who I want. If we get pick #6 and take a player I'm ambivalent on, I wouldn't be happy because we picked #6....and yay high pick number!
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ Joined: 04.08.2012
Mar 10 @ 4:48 PM ET
And we are going to have maybe the scariest defense in the league that they need to beat, and that they don't have. Our offense will largely be driven by it. Provorov, Ghost, Myers, Sanheim, MacDonald. It's a fearsome bunch. Toronto has their own holes there, and those aren't easy to fix either. They're not swimming in elite defensive prospects. And those take a while to get and build around, longer than forwards. What other teams in the division? Columbus is much the same as us. So is Carolina. Good, not great forwards. Toronto could potentially have the best forward core in the league when we contend, along with Edmonton, but they're flawed rosters too at present.
It's just very possible we'll be a team with elite defensemen, elite goaltending, elite depth, with an interchangeable top 9/12 depth that is better than some teams' second lines..........but our top line is lesser on the star quality up front than some teams. That's ok. There's always a give and take. I'd just like to see a star forward, especially at center, to anchor it. It's doable. As always, I just worry if Hextall sees the current forward core as Cup caliber now and going forward. Because it looks a star short now, and it'll only get worse as our current ones age. - Mononoke
I'm just not sure if a deep group of forwards without elite level talent can win a cup.
Location: I'd do anything to get you humans out of my forest! Joined: 07.19.2015
Mar 10 @ 4:53 PM ET
I'm just not sure if a deep group of forwards without elite level talent can win a cup. - PhillySportsGuy
It's possible we piecemeal it together. Elite PP center + elite 5v5 centers + whatever = same net impact. It's handier and more common if it's one, but doesn't have to be the case. I think we could be a team like Boston with Krejci/Bergeron and no true 80 pt #1 center. We may not need a 1A type.....but if we can find a 1B type (60 pt all-around player), that may do. I'm just not sure we even have that.
Like I said earlier, 150 points in the top 9 center ice position is the bar. Hit it any way you can.
The thing about points is they always need context. 50 point today is basically low end 1st line.
Couturier does not get PP1 time (and there's maybe only a few consistent 50+ guys in the league without PP1 time), and the PP2 has been a mess for a long time. Finally he's in front of the net because the coach had an epiphany we've had for years and moved him there. And the PP2 looks better now, and the personnel is improved, everyone going to their proper spots. Even so, all you can hope for is 10-12 PP points a year on the second unit, and his career high is 7, I believe. So, in order to hit 50, we're talking about scoring almost 40 ES points. That's not 2nd line levels. That's elite first line levels, top 20-25 in the league for all players, and #1 center scoring. So, that's what people ACTUALLY want from him. It sounds almost ridiculous when you actually break it down and don't just arbitrarily throw out numbers. But that's what he did last year, barring time missed, and that was probably as close to max capacity as he can run at 2 points per game 5v5. And it's a fact all the best players on the team score more with him than apart.
It's just like Provorov will never touch Norris Trophy level scoring (40+) without seeing PP1 time. He's a beast 5v5 scorer this year, but it's just not possible without PP1 time. But everyone loves Provorov and calls him a #1 because he matches against top lines, scores well 5v5, leads the PK, and can hopefully outscore his opponents in spite of that usage. Sounds familiar. - Mononoke
I understand you're obligated to make a straw man argument with a heaping of sarcasm, but compile me a list of what you would consider are league-wide 1Cs in recent years and where they were drafted. Wingers are definitely more variable, but even then, top talent rises to the top and that's where you maximize your chances of finding one.
Is it possible to find 1Cs outside the top 5-10? Sure. It's just a lot less common. They are the most known quantity of any prospect position at draft day. The entire point in picking high isn't to guarantee anything. It's to increase the odds of it happening and not be a slave to rare instances and slim chances that may never deliver. I'll always take my chances with a coin flip over a raffle. And I don't want a high # pick for a high # pick's sake. I care about the player picked. Notice I name names because that's specifically who I want. If we get pick #6 and take a player I'm ambivalent on, I wouldn't be happy because we picked #6....and yay high pick number! - Mononoke
I really like Vilardi, enough that I'd explore trading up to get him.
Location: I'd do anything to get you humans out of my forest! Joined: 07.19.2015
Mar 10 @ 5:05 PM ET
I really like Vilardi, enough that I'd explore trading up to get him. - BiggE
I love Vilardi and have seen him a lot. One of my favorites. Like his floor and his ceiling. He's the type of player I feel comfortable saying our scouts would rate highly.
It's possible we piecemeal it together. Elite PP center + elite 5v5 centers + whatever = same net impact. It's handier and more common if it's one, but doesn't have to be the case. I think we could be a team like Boston with Krejci/Bergeron and no true 80 pt #1 center. We may not need a 1A type.....but if we can find a 1B type (60 pt all-around player), that may do. I'm just not sure we even have that.
Like I said earlier, 150 points in the top 9 center ice position is the bar. Hit it any way you can. - Mononoke
The Devils won Cups without an elite #1 center, however it helps when you have a HoF goalie and 2 HoF Dmen. That being said, if you have an elite goalie and a stud D corps, I think you win without a true 1C. You could build 3 strong lines built around good, but not great, centers.
