I'm not in the mood for a long discussion on hockey systems, but I will say this: I played hockey from Squirts up through Junior and I've coached youth hockey as well, so yes, I do understand systems. Gordon's on ice system, in almost every way, is nothing like Hak's. You many feel free to disagree.

RE the players you mentioned: Weal has looked good in a very small sample size, I'm not ready to make any final judgement on him yet and Cousins has shown me nothing to make me think that he will be any more than a 4th line agitator at best. However, I did make the point that after only 2 seasons as Phantoms coach that it is too early to judge Gordon from a developmental perspective so I'm really not sure what you are arguing about.
- BiggE

Doesn't need to be a long discussion just tell me what Hakstol and Gordon's system is.

If you do understand systems then would understand the point I made previously. Which is that there are probably elements to the systems that Hakstol likes and has in his repertoire but is not currently using. I fully believe that once the Flyers become a better team, they will play more aggressively in some ways. So just because one sees differences between the two teams does not mean that they aren't part of Hakstol's systems package.

Cousins was selected in the 3rd round so if he turns out to be an NHL player at any level it's a success.

Columbus is currently doing a better job. Holy (frank).....I'm not saying there the 2010 Chicago Blackhawks...I'm comparing them and the current situation to the 2017 Flyers.
- landros 2

Yup this season Columbus did a better job because they , as a team, gelled and got better goaltending.

Last season the Flyers did a better job because they, as a team , gelled and got better goaltending.

I hope next season with the continued influx of rookie talent the FLyers do better.

If the system was indeed a problem ....pretty sure Hextall would have addressed it when he hired Gordon.
- landros 2

Perhaps he doesn't see it as an issue. I can only speak about my opinion of it and the fact that I think the Pens method of having identical systems makes more sense to me. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Perhaps he doesn't see it as an issue. I can only speak about my opinion of it and the fact that I think the Pens method of having identical systems makes more sense to me. Perhaps I'm wrong.
- BiggE

This really does make sense to me..
I cant figure out why the Phantoms dont play the same symptoms as the Flyers..
It just seems like it would be logical if they did.

That trade that Columbus made is such a rare thing these days in the league so I don't think it is something that should be used to as an example to rate how Hextall is doing with the Flyers. Development of young players once they get to the NHL is rarely linear. It's frequently a series of ups and downs.
- MJL

Gutsy trade ...maybe rare....but the Blue Jackets have done a nice job in the last couple of years. As far as Hextall.....my only comment would be is that the jury is still out. As you said young prospects are hardly a given and too this point that's all Hextall is using to better the franchise for the most part.

Gutsy trade ...maybe rare....but the Blue Jackets have done a nice job in the last couple of years. As far as Hextall.....my only comment would be is that the jury is still out. As you said young prospects are hardly a given and too this point that's all Hextall is using to better the franchise for the most part.
- landros 2

The jury is still out. On both Hextall and Hakstol. Too this point all I would expect Hextall to use is the draft.

Perhaps he doesn't see it as an issue. I can only speak about my opinion of it and the fact that I think the Pens method of having identical systems makes more sense to me. Perhaps I'm wrong.
- BiggE

I don't think your wrong...I haven't the luxury to watch any phantom games....I would assume they would use the same system....it odd.

Doesn't need to be a long discussion just tell me what Hakstol and Gordon's system is.

If you do understand systems then would understand the point I made previously. Which is that there are probably elements to the systems that Hakstol likes and has in his repertoire but is not currently using. I fully believe that once the Flyers become a better team, they will play more aggressively in some ways. So just because one sees differences between the two teams does not mean that they aren't part of Hakstol's systems package.

Cousins was selected in the 3rd round so if he turns out to be an NHL player at any level it's a success.
- MJL

It is certainly a legit point that Hak may want to incorporate more things into his system that he doesn't feel the current team can handle. The biggest difference between Hak and Gordon is that Hak's teams favor possession and, if possible, entering the offensive zone with possession and exiting the defensive zone whenever possible by making a clean passout to do so. Gordon's teams, OTOH, seem to rely much more on old school dump and chase when entering the O zone and just chipping the puck out up the boards and hoping to retain possession when exiting the D zone. Some of that may be talented related, but not all of it. The only Phantoms Dman who ever seems to carry the puck with any effectiveness is Sanheim and all of their forwards, from the most to the least talented, seem to dump and chase an awful lot.

It is certainly a legit point that Hak may want to incorporate more things into his system that he doesn't feel the current team can handle. The biggest difference between Hak and Gordon is that Hak's teams favor possession and, if possible, entering the offensive zone with possession and exiting the defensive zone whenever possible by making a clean passout to do so. Gordon's teams, OTOH, seem to rely much more on old school dump and chase when entering the O zone and just chipping the puck out up the boards and hoping to retain possession when exiting the D zone. Some of that may be talented related, but not all of it. The only Phantoms Dman who ever seems to carry the puck with any effectiveness is Sanheim and all of their forwards, from the most to the least talented, seem to dump and chase an awful lot.
- BiggE

Chipping and chasing versus carrying the puck in on the rush is not an example of a hockey system. No coach has a system that prefers the dump and chase over carrying the puck in with possession. You're giving a general description of how the teams execute on the ice. I want to know what their systems are. What is their forecheck scheme, neutral zone forecheck scheme, regroups, defensive zone scheme, etc. If we're going to talk systems, lets actually talk about them.

This is the same thing that some posters are floating that Hakstol prefers low percentage point shots over higher percentage scoring chances from high percentage areas of the ice.

Since taking over in 2014, Hextall has made 25 draft picks, including 4 in the first round. You expect your first rounders to succeed, after that if 2 or more players in any given draft year develop into NHL players, you've done well. So far, it looks like quite a few of the guys Hexy picked in the later rounds are developing very well and have legit shots to be good NHL players. Friedman, Lindblom, Sandstrom, Vorobyev, Marody, Laberge, Hart, and Allison are 8 players selected after the 1st round that look like potential NHL players. When your team has 9 prospects playing at the World Juniors, you are clearly doing something right.
- BiggE

Hopefully some of these kids do work out....my singular point on Hextall is simple....you won't make this team better by totally relying on the draft. Case in point.....3 of our top 4 forwards came via trade.

Chipping and chasing versus carrying the puck in on the rush is not an example of a hockey system. No coach has a system that prefers the dump and chase over carrying the puck in with possession. You're giving a general description of how the teams execute on the ice. I want to know what their systems are. What is their forecheck scheme, neutral zone forecheck scheme, regroups, defensive zone scheme, etc. If we're going to talk systems, lets actually talk about them.

This is the same thing that some posters are floating that Hakstol prefers low percentage point shots over higher percentage scoring chances from high percentage areas of the ice.
- MJL

Sorry life is too short and you'll just automatically disagree with everything I say. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Sorry life is too short and you'll just automatically disagree with everything I say. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
- BiggE

Nothing to do with that in reality. It just prove my point that fans like to throw around the word systems and can't even post what they actually are.

Hopefully some of these kids do work out....my singular point on Hextall is simple....you won't make this team better by totally relying on the draft. Case in point.....3 of our top 4 forwards came via trade.
- landros 2

You are absolutely right that no team is built solely through the draft and I think moves will be coming both via trades and FA. However, I do think, if possible, it makes the most sense in a cap league, to try and build your core as much through the draft as you can. Next up should be trading from a position of strength (likely our upcoming D) to fill a position of weakness (young, impact forward). Lastly, use free agency to fill the final holes in the roster. Free agency needs to be avoided whenever possible to fill key positions as you will almost always be forced to overpay and commit for too many years. It should be used to fill in holes on the 3rd and 4th lines the 5-7 Dmen and back-up goalie.

Nothing to do with that in reality. It just prove my point that fans like to throw around the word systems and can't even post what they actually are.
- MJL

If that makes you feel better, go right ahead. Your opinion doesn't change my confidence in my hockey knowledge one iota.

Nothing to do with that in reality. It just prove my point that fans like to throw around the word systems and can't even post what they actually are.
- MJL

How many Phantoms games have you watched this year?

How many Phantoms games have you watched this year?
- Mordecai

Not many.

You are absolutely right that no team is built solely through the draft and I think moves will be coming both via trades and FA. However, I do think, if possible, it makes the most sense in a cap league, to try and build your core as much through the draft as you can. Next up should be trading from a position of strength (likely our upcoming D) to fill a position of weakness (young, impact forward). Lastly, use free agency to fill the final holes in the roster. Free agency needs to be avoided whenever possible to fill key positions as you will almost always be forced to overpay and commit for too many years. It should be used to fill in holes on the 3rd and 4th lines the 5-7 Dmen and back-up goalie.
- BiggE

I agree with you.

Let's look at recent cup winners. Penguins kings Blackhawks let's say since these teams won every cup but 1 since 2009. Name their top 3 players. How many were trades and how many were drafted ? You build core through the draft and you supplement with free agency and trades. You need a core first.

Hopefully some of these kids do work out....my singular point on Hextall is simple....you won't make this team better by totally relying on the draft. Case in point.....3 of our top 4 forwards came via trade.
- landros 2

I personally just think they time for trades and FA signings is when you are at the end of this approach and really ready to make your mark and not the stage we are at now.

What FA signing could they make this season that makes them a cup contender next season? What trade?

There isnt one.

Now if everything goes as planned ask that same question in 2 or 3 years and there is a different answer.

I personally just think they time for trades and FA signings is when you are at the end of this approach and really ready to make your mark and not the stage we are at now.

What FA signing could they make this season that makes them a cup contender next season? What trade?

There isnt one.

Now if everything goes as planned ask that same question in 2 or 3 years and there is a different answer.
- opeth_pa

Agreed. FA has changed. You aren't seeing top tier core pieces hit FA anymore. What you're seeing is fringe core players(really slightly above average complimentary players) get bloated contracts. The salary cap and term restrictions have really hampered the market for guys testing the FA waters.

With the possibility of signing Bishop as a bridge to the younger goalies I don't want them signing any FA's of note. A good team should be able to call up depth from their system. FA signings for the bottom six drive me absolutely nuts. The Weise signing cannot happen again.

But yeah, when this team is competing I'll certainly consider a FA or two if it's the missing piece we need.

Agreed. FA has changed. You aren't seeing top tier core pieces hit FA anymore. What you're seeing is fringe core players(really slightly above average complimentary players) get bloated contracts. The salary cap and term restrictions have really hampered the market for guys testing the FA waters.

With the possibility of signing Bishop as a bridge to the younger goalies I don't want them signing any FA's of note. A good team should be able to call up depth from their system. FA signings for the bottom six drive me absolutely nuts. The Weise signing cannot happen again.

But yeah, when this team is competing I'll certainly consider a FA or two if it's the missing piece we need.
- hereticpride

Agree 100%

The mucking and the grinding. Lets go

The mucking and the grinding. Lets go
- Just5

200 foot players
structure
play the game the right way

Im not sure what Columbus having success with their model has to do with the Flyers thought..

Last year Ghost had a great season and go figure like almost every other player in the history of the world, struggled in in his second season.

THis year Provy and TK made the team..I suspect Provy will take a step back next season.

Next season You could have as many as 2-4 highly touted rookies make the team out of camp.

If you want to be frustrated that the Flyers once again are not competing for the cup I am 100% with you..Claiming Columbus is doing it so much better than the FLyers doesnt make any sense.
- opeth_pa

I don't think Provorov takes a step back at all. In fact, I think he solidifies his spot as a number one all situations defenseman. He is a different kind of player than Ghost. The league adjusted to Ghost and he didn't adjust fast enough or well enough to counter. Plus I think the numbers he put up as a rookie were way over blown partly because teams didn't have a book him. But as the season went on, they did get a scouting report on him and his game regressed.

Provorov on the other hand....I don't think teams can actually adjust to him the same way, other than maybe start going the Bobby Orr route and actually start throwing the puck at him all the time. I think, however, that plays in to his hands because we WANT him with the puck on his stick as much as possible.

Provorov is going to win Norris trophies.

post

double post