We paid Taylor Hall for exactly what you just mentioned.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Dude, Reinhart isn't even close to Taylor Hall's production level, let alone Hall is already 25 himself and an ACTUAL established scorer.

Proven success? Uh. Not really. Not even close.

Reinhart: 90 points in 167 career games

Hanafin: 51 points in 160 career games

As a forward, Reinhart should be at the very least DOUBLE the points total of a denfenseman, especially since D take longer to develop.

If Reinhart is proven, so is Hanafin. Neither of them are proven but there is no way Reinhart alone gets you Hanafin and adding a 1st doesn't help Carolina because they also need to think about the cap, since they're actually almost BELOW the cap right now.

Holy (frank)ing overvalue a guy who's been invisible in more than half the games he's played in.
- BeadyEyedDouche

So, we devalue a top 3 pick because Carolina has cap issues?

Dude, Reinhart isn't even close to Taylor Hall's production level, let alone Hall is already 25 himself and an ACTUAL established scorer.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Hall averages 23.34 goals per year
Reinhart averages 20


Hall averages .83 ppg
Reinhart averages .54 ppg

Sure, Hall is better, but Reinhart isn't crap either.

Yes, they're valuable, but Reinhart, a top 3 pick in the draft, and more for a guy who is unproven? Come on? Reinhart averages 20 goals per year so far and 45 pts. Put him at center and he'll do better. Hanifin will be good, but that is a HUGE over payment.
- sskkoo1

First of all, no he doesn't average 20 goals per year. He has 40 career goals in 167 career games. One season of 23 and one season of 17, plus his 9 games from his draft year with 0.

45 points is not a proven player, especially for a top-3 pick. That's ridiculous.

Damn dude put the pipe down.

Dude, Reinhart isn't even close to Taylor Hall's production level, let alone Hall is already 25 himself and an ACTUAL established scorer.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Oh I know, just the point that highly drafted under 25 dmen aren't cheap.

So, we devalue a top 3 pick because Carolina has cap issues?

- sskkoo1

No one said Reinhart sucks. but he isn't close to proven at this point.

For comparison, we gave up TWO first round draft picks and the equivalent of TWO second round picks, one a 31st overall and one a player selected 35th overall for Ryan O'Reilly who had exactly ONE 20 goal season before we traded for him and a guy who had never even hit 40 points.

It equates to giving up two first round picks and two second round picks for two second round picks. Regardless of what the players given up on our end have done since. Remove McGinn and we essentially traded two firsts and one second round pick for a second round pick.

And you think Reinhart alone will land you a 20 year old defenseman who's numbers are actually pretty good given his age and how long D takes to develop?

You are WAY off base on this one.

First of all, no he doesn't average 20 goals per year. He has 40 career goals in 167 career games. One season of 23 and one season of 17, plus his 9 games from his draft year with 0.

45 points is not a proven player, especially for a top-3 pick. That's ridiculous.

Damn dude put the pipe down.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Damn, dude, there is 82 games in a season, x2 = 164. Reinhart has 40 goals after 167 games, so yeah, that is 20 goals per season on average.

No one said Reinhart sucks. but he isn't close to proven at this point.

For comparison, we gave up TWO first round draft picks and the equivalent of TWO second round picks, one a 31st overall and one a player selected 35th overall for Ryan O'Reilly who had exactly ONE 20 goal season before we traded for him and a guy who had never even hit 40 points.

It equates to giving up two first round picks and two second round picks for two second round picks. Regardless of what the players given up on our end have done since. Remove McGinn and we essentially traded two firsts and one second round pick for a second round pick.

And you think Reinhart alone will land you a 20 year old defenseman who's numbers are actually pretty good given his age and how long D takes to develop?

You are WAY off base on this one.
- BeadyEyedDouche

I never once said Reinhart alone would land us Hanifin or a young Dman like him. I said Reinhart, a top 3 pick in the draft, + more... is ridiculous, and it is.

Oh I know, just the point that highly drafted under 25 dmen aren't cheap.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Honestly, that trade was one of the hardest to gauge for me since I've followed hockey. I think most people would agree that it was a massive overpayment but that's the price of a solid young defenseman.

By Skoo's logic, Larsson was unproven because he doesn't score, but go figure, Hanafin's numbers so far project to be much better than Larsson's. I realize Larsson is a defensive defenseman, but apparently he was unproven because his stats are Dan Bylsma-esque.

Not sure about his adv. stats but Ben Harpur looks like a good find for Ottawa.

Damn, dude, there is 82 games in a season, x2 = 164. Reinhart has 40 goals after 167 games, so yeah, that is 20 goals per season on average.
- sskkoo1

40 goals in 167 games does not average to 20 goals per season. Do your math again.

I never once said Reinhart alone would land us Hanifin or a young Dman like him. I said Reinhart, a top 3 pick in the draft, + more... is ridiculous, and it is.
- sskkoo1

Reinhart and a 1st for Hanafin is where it starts, but I highly doubt Carolina write home about that offer since someone else would definitely give more.

Just like we massively overpayed for ROR and then massively overpaid him.

40 goals in 167 games does not average to 20 goals per season. Do your math again.
- BeadyEyedDouche

It a C-hair from 20 goals a season. Don't be so literal.

how the (frank) did that stay out

I never once said Reinhart alone would land us Hanifin or a young Dman like him. I said Reinhart, a top 3 pick in the draft, + more... is ridiculous, and it is.
- sskkoo1

You're right.

I don't respond any longer. There's no sane argument that can take place.

Reinhart and a 1st for Hanafin is where it starts, but I highly doubt Carolina write home about that offer since someone else would definitely give more.

Just like we massively overpayed for ROR and then massively overpaid him.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Maybe Reinhart and next years first, definitely not one in the top 10. And, overpaying for ROR was Murray's stupidity, same with all his other deals he overpaid for, he was drunk throwing assets around.

It a C-hair from 20 goals a season. Don't be so literal.
- sskkoo1

Sorry, but he flat our hasn't averaged 20 goals per season. He has one of 23 and one of 17. It's like saying Derek Roy was a .ppg player because that one season he had 81 points in 78 games.

Honestly, that trade was one of the hardest to gauge for me since I've followed hockey. I think most people would agree that it was a massive overpayment but that's the price of a solid young defenseman.

By Skoo's logic, Larsson was unproven because he doesn't score, but go figure, Hanafin's numbers so far project to be much better than Larsson's. I realize Larsson is a defensive defenseman, but apparently he was unproven because his stats are Dan Bylsma-esque.
- BeadyEyedDouche

I never had an issue with it. Hall was dynamic and scored a lot...and also went 1 on 2 or 3 a lot, fell down trying to do too much and gave it away at the offensive blueline causing odd man rushes. At the same time, at one point Mark Fayne was considered a big UFA signing and Andrew Ferrence was our captain. Our D was beyond merely bad. We had some real talent coming up but they needed a solidifying presence. Larsson was a great choice. The optics we're never good but hockey fans are always a bit short sighted.

Sorry, but he flat our hasn't averaged 20 goals per season. He has one of 23 and one of 17. It's like saying Derek Roy was a .ppg player because that one season he had 81 points in 78 games.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Not including his 9 game tryout in his draft year. Reinhart has had 2 full seasons scoring 23 & 17 goals.

23 + 17 = 40 / 2 = 20 How does that not average 20 goals per season for his 2 seasons?

Not including his 9 game tryout in his draft year. Reinhart has had 2 full seasons scoring 23 & 17 goals.

23 + 17 = 40 / 2 = 20 How does that not average 20 goals per season for his 2 seasons?
- sskkoo1

It's only been 2 years, but he's scored 20 once. Didn't score 20 the other time. Hard to say you can count on 20 from him if he does it 50%. I mean, he could easily score 20 next year so who knows, it's a silly argument

It's like calling Kane a 30 goal guy because he did it once

It's only been 2 years, but he's scored 20 once. Didn't score 20 the other time. Hard to say you can count on 20 from him if he does it 50%. I mean, he could easily score 20 next year so who knows, it's a silly argument

It's like calling Kane a 30 goal guy because he did it once
- sbroads24

Well, no, it's an average. He's played exactly two NHL seasons and has scored exactly 40 goals in those two seasons. That's an average of 20 goals per season so far. But, yeah, who knows what he'll do in the future.

You're right.

I don't respond any longer. There's no sane argument that can take place.
- RhinoFan

Okay then, name one trade in the past decade where a young, high-drafted defenseman was even traded and what the return was?

We had a Weber/Subban swap and everyone except the guy in Montreal who thought it was a good idea knew it was flat retarded to trade Subban, let alone in a 1 for 1 swap.

Myers, a former Calder winner and 12th overall pick who can't stay healthy or play at a high level in every season since then was traded in a package (including a 1st overall, two former 1st round picks and the first pick of the second round in his draft) for a former 3rd overall DEFENSEMAN and a former 4th overall.

Can you find me an example that would prove that Reinhart, a 1st and possibly more assets for Hanafin (and possible other assets) is a massive overpayment? You can't. It's just typical Sabres homerism overvaluing their players.

If we want Hanafin out of Carolina, I'm sorry to break it to you guys but it absolutely starts with Reinhart and a 1st and even then, we might have to sweeten the pot. It's possible that Hanafin could come with some conditional assets, like a 2nd or 3rd rounder or a prospect.

But if you're Carolina, do you trade Hanafin for Reinart and a 1st? If you do, you don't have a job anymore as their GM.

I never had an issue with it. Hall was dynamic and scored a lot...and also went 1 on 2 or 3 a lot, fell down trying to do too much and gave it away at the offensive blueline causing odd man rushes. At the same time, at one point Mark Fayne was considered a big UFA signing and Andrew Ferrence was our captain. Our D was beyond merely bad. We had some real talent coming up but they needed a solidifying presence. Larsson was a great choice. The optics we're never good but hockey fans are always a bit short sighted.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Absolutely the biggest factor was for Lasson to anchor the D-core and he did exactly that. It turned out to be a better trade for EDM, in my opinion. New Jersey are in a terrible situation right now. I do not see them making the playoffs anytime soon.

3rd place in fantasy holy poop
- chilliard77

I told you to wait.

Not including his 9 game tryout in his draft year. Reinhart has had 2 full seasons scoring 23 & 17 goals.

23 + 17 = 40 / 2 = 20 How does that not average 20 goals per season for his 2 seasons?
- sskkoo1

Because if you want to get really technical, it averages more than 20 goals per season since his two full seasons are both 79 games played and 79+79= 158 and 40 goals in 158 games is slightly higher than 20/per but you can't just discount his 9 game tryout.

And even then, like sbroads just said, he has one season of 23 and one of 17. He very well could never hit 20 again, who knows? But my main point is that Reinhart is not proven.

Evander Kane has scored 20 goals or more three times with one of them being a season of exactly 30. Granted, he's been injured a lot but I wouldn't even call Kane a proven 20 goal scorer. He has 157g in 496gp. That's equivalent to 6 full seasons of play and 26 goals per season but do you see how misleading that is?