Cool, another smurf.
- Dieselhead

Goals are down yes....But in my opinion when a center who gets the PP time and total ice time that Toews does, fails to score at least 60 poiints in the last 2 seasons he isn't a top producing center...and the argument that you fail to see or won't acknowledge, both your choice-Is his production has resembled a 2nd line center, and that's a point I can see others make.
- Al

Deleting original comment because I'm just repeating myself so I'll just leave it at:

Toews had a .81 PPG or projected 66 points. This is why PPG is useful when comparing players when different games samples. That's over 60 points, thus by your standard, he produced at a 1C level. Total get questioning 15/16, though it's almost certainly that was an outlier, though we'll know for sure by next season.

So once more with feeling: I have no issue what so ever is people believe Toews should produce more, for many reasons, but it's just not factually correct to say he produced below a 1C rate last season.

I keep providing actual point totals for centers in the league and you're just saying "well, I think they should score more" with no empirical evidence to support your claim of him producing at a 2C level. And now that you've mentioned 60 points as your base for 1C (it's 2 points off in actuality), then you've kind of ruined your argument because Toews was in line to score more than that last year.

Toews had a .81 PPG or projected 66 points. This is why PPG is useful when comparing players when different games samples. How can you claim that Toews isn't a 1C because he didn't hit the 60 point mark when you're ignoring that he missed 10 games and would have reached 66 if he hadn't?

And btw all of the centers in the top 30 or so get a lot of PP time and the top share of 5v5 TOI for their team, but not all of them have the zone deployment or face the same quality of competition as Toews. That's a different discussion, though.

So once more with feeling: I have no issue what so ever is people believe Toews should produce more, for many reasons, but it's just not factually correct to say he produced below a 1C rate last season. 15/16 is closer, but it's super likely that season was an outlier, though we'll know for sure after this next season.
- L_B_R

I acknowledge those who think his production doesn't reflect a top scoring
#1 center... and u can pick any line in the sand u want as far as points go but Toews hasn't been in the top 20 centers in scoring on a very good regular season team for 2 years.
That is a fact but most important are the other parts of his game on the defensive side of the puck that have slipped which I find more concerning.

I acknowledge those who think his production doesn't reflect a top scoring
#1 center... and u can pick any line in the sand u want as far as points go but Toews hasn't been in the top 20 centers in scoring on a very good regular season team for 2 years.
That is a fact but most important are the other parts of his game on the defensive side of the puck that have slipped which I find more concerning.
- Al

Things like this are what bother me most Johansen rag dolling Toews:

https://twitter.com/cms_7...status/854158883719454720


In a battle of the Hawks’ best vs. the Preds’ best, the results haven’t been close. It’s the biggest reason why Nashville swept the Hawks.

I acknowledge those who think his production doesn't reflect a top scoring
#1 center... and u can pick any line in the sand u want as far as points go but Toews hasn't been in the top 20 centers in scoring on a very good regular season team for 2 years.
That is a fact but most important are the other parts of his game on the defensive side of the puck that have slipped which I find more concerning.
- Al

Toews was 15th in PPG for centers last season with a projected 66 points. I don't know why you ignore that he missed 10 games.

I also fundamentally disagree you can pick any line in the sand when there's a specific cutoff for the top 30 centers in the league. I only used 60 points because it was the line you gave, but I've told you mind - it's based on the historical point production of 1Cs in the league over the last several years.

The Toews hand wringing cracks me up. The guy scored 68 points in 2010 (SC). For his career he is a .86 pt/game player. Last year he was .81 pt/game player. Not a huge drop off and he was playing with different wings on a regular basis.

Toews was 15th in PPG for centers last season with a projected 66 points. I don't know why you ignore that he missed 10 games.

I also fundamentally disagree you can pick any line in the sand when there's a specific cutoff for the top 30 centers in the league. I only used 60 points because it was the line you gave, but I've told you mind - it's based on the historical point production of 1Cs in the league over the last several years.
- L_B_R

I don't agree with using a projection to rank unless none of the centers who finished above him did not miss a game...

The Toews hand wringing cracks me up. The guy scored 68 points in 2010 (SC). For his career he is a .86 pt/game player. Last year he was .81 pt/game player. Not a huge drop off and he was playing with different wings on a regular basis.
- -Doh-

Unless it's not hand ringing, Johansen's Corsi was near 60%, he owned Toews. In retrospect it now makes sense why there was no push back by the Hawks, the head had been cut off. And this time even Seabrook couldn't help him.

I don't agree with using a projection to rank unless none of the centers who finished above him did not miss a game...
- Al

Why would you ignore games played when comparing players? Games played is a variable that puts players on an uneven playing field, so you remove that by going by PPG / points projection. It's not like taking Toews' projected points and plopping them in the middle of other center' flat points - it's looking at PPG / projection of all center. I mean, would you rank Kane as the 32nd best points producer in 2015/16 because he only scored 64 points? If so, maybe you'd be happy to trade Kane straight up for Kyle Turris since they scored the same amount of points that year.

And you seriously don't think Toews would have scored two more points in 10 games to reach your proposed 60 point 1C standard? He's never failed to do so in his career. And 6 points in 10 games is pretty realistic for a guy who got at a .71 PPG (7 points in 10 games) in his worst season.

Unless it's not hand ringing, Johansen's Corsi was near 60%, he owned Toews. In retrospect it now makes sense why there was no push back by the Hawks, the head had been cut off. And this time even Seabrook couldn't help him.
- walleyeb1

Well, Johnansen didn't quite own him every game, just 2 and 3. Toews CF with Johansen on the ice was the following:

Game 1: 66.67
Game 2: 43.75
Game 3: 25.00
Game 4: 76.19

Game 4 was Toews-Kane reuniting for most of it.

Stanbo, make a trade or something before the good people on this board eat each other.

Why would you ignore games played when comparing players? Games played is a variable that puts players on an uneven playing field, so you remove that by going by PPG / points projection. Did you rank Kane as the 30th best points producer in 2015/16 because he only scored 64 points? I mean, if so, maybe you'd be happy to trade Kane straight up for Kyle Turris since they scored the same amount of points that year. Practically the same player.

And you seriously don't think Toews would have scored two more points in 10 games to reach your proposed 60 point 1C standard? He's never failed to do so in his career. And 6 points in 10 games is pretty realistic for a guy who got at a .71 PPG in his worst season.
- L_B_R

If Im evaluating scoring centers I would use point totals. I don't think it is accurate to use a projection to try to move up a player in rankings because other players have also missed games.

Toews points aren't his biggest asset as a player in my view but when ranking first line centers production is important.

Last year some centers missed games and finished well above Toews in scoring.

If you consider the last 2 years, which I am...More telling was 15-16 when Toews missed only 2 games and finished 24th in scoring among centers. Of the 23 centers with more points, 13 played fewer than 80 games.

I think there is cause for concern as far as offensive production but not as much as on the defensive end. He could have been hurt, or just out of gas, but Toews didn't look like a 1st line center versus Johansen.

Maybe 17-18 will be a big bounce back year for Toews-He's not a machine and could have been playing with a bad back for awhile. If so he won't be ranked in the bottom 1/3 of 1st line centers as has been the case...

Well, Johnansen didn't quite own him every game, just 2 and 3. Toews CF with Johansen on the ice was the following:

Game 1: 66.67
Game 2: 43.75
Game 3: 25.00
Game 4: 76.19

Game 4 was Toews-Kane reuniting for most of it.
- L_B_R

Physically he owned him in every game....That was most surprising, Johansen was much stronger on the puck.

Physically he owned him in every game....That was most surprising, Johansen was much stronger on the puck.
- Al

Sure sure sure. Not saying he didn't, but walleyeb1 specifically mentioned CF%, so I provided the numbers. As I'm wont to do.

If Im evaluating scoring centers I would use point totals. I don't think it is accurate to use a projection to try to move up a player in rankings because other players have also missed games.

Toews points aren't his biggest asset as a player in my view but when ranking first line centers production is important.

Last year some centers missed games and finished well above Toews in scoring.

If you consider the last 2 years, which I am...More telling was 15-16 when Toews missed only 2 games and finished 24th in scoring among centers. Of the 23 centers with more points, 13 played fewer than 80 games.

I think there is cause for concern as far as offensive production but not as much as on the defensive end. He could have been hurt, or just out of gas, but Toews didn't look like a 1st line center versus Johansen.

Maybe 17-18 will be a big bounce back year for Toews-He's not a machine and could have been playing with a bad back for awhile. If so he won't be ranked in the bottom 1/3 of 1st line centers as has been the case...
- Al

Yeah, we fundamentally do not see eye-to-eye on how points should be viewed. I don't understand even a little not taking into consideration games played. I highly doubt you would ranked Kane 32nd among players in 14/15 or rank McDavid 46th among centers in 15/16. Who the (frank) would?

You keep mentioning the other centers who played less than Toews in 15/16 - you get that's my point, right? They played a different number of games, so the starting point for comparing players is already uneven. Why wouldn't you compensate for that?

And we also disagree when it comes to the 15/16 season. The fact that Toews produced at a .81 PPG 14/15 and 16/17, but dipped down a lot in 15/16, suggests that it is an outlier. That's more subjective, but still.

Man, I'm done. My brain cannot comprehend the disregard for PPG as a better evaluator for players with different game samples than flat points. It's really mind boggling to me.

Hype machine (fan side) in full effect for the kid. Already a lineup for autographs. Going to be some very disappointed people if he doesn't make the NHL squad. He, personally, sounds more realistic about his chances.

He definitely realized he needs to be tenacious on the puck:

https://twitter.com/BySco...status/887029088032108545

https://twitter.com/BySco...status/887025118962225153

And, a bonus Highmore, who several of you mentioned keen interest in seeing:

https://twitter.com/BySco...status/887024322308648964
- pdx2ord

Highmore is the guy that I think could be a good darkhorse candidate for a little time in with the big club this year

Highmore is the guy that I think could be a good darkhorse candidate for a little time in with the big club this year
- grinder10

Another poster asked who people think big surprises might be this season. Setting aside players who weren't regulars last season like Schmaltz, although I think he will have a solid second season, I would agree that Highmore is a dark horse candidate along with Dauphin, Hayden, Raddysh, and Fortin.

Yeah, we fundamentally do not see eye-to-eye on how points should be viewed. I don't understand even a little not taking into consideration games played. I highly doubt you would ranked Kane 32nd among players in 14/15 or rank McDavid 46th among centers in 15/16. Who the (frank) would?

You keep mentioning the other centers who played less than Toews in 15/16 - you get that's my point, right? They played a different number of games, so the starting point for comparing players is already uneven. Why wouldn't you compensate for that?

And we also disagree when it comes to the 15/16 season. The fact that Toews produced at a .81 PPG 14/15 and 16/17, but dipped down a lot in 15/16, suggests that it is an outlier. That's more subjective, but still.

Man, I'm done. My brain cannot comprehend the disregard for PPG as a better evaluator for players with different game samples than flat points. It's really mind boggling to me.
- L_B_R

It's not worth getting stressed about neither one of us lost the opening round of the playoffs 2 years in a row and only scored 1 goal in doing so....

It's not worth getting stressed about neither one of us lost the opening round of the playoffs 2 years in a row and only scored 1 goal in doing so....

- Al

I'm not stressed - my mind is boggled.

I'm not stressed - my mind is boggled.
- L_B_R

You may want to try a drink or three...that can help.

You may want to try a drink or three...that can help.
- Al

It's not worth getting stressed about neither one of us lost the opening round of the playoffs 2 years in a row and only scored 1 goal in doing so....

- Al

You can pull a stat to support nearly any hypothesis, Al. The eye test the last two years shows me a player who has regressed in all areas of his play.

You can pull a stat to support nearly any hypothesis, Al. The eye test the last two years shows me a player who has regressed in all areas of his play.
- EnzoD

Edzo, is it you who's an Ohio State alum? Just wondering if you or anyone else has any insights on the potential of former Buckeyes goalie Tomkins as a future NHL backup. Or does he have career minor leaguer written all over him?

Edzo, is it you who's an Ohio State alum? Just wondering if you or anyone else has any insights on the potential of former Buckeyes goalie Tomkins as a future NHL backup. Or does he have career minor leaguer written all over him?
- AEL_Fox

Enzo is my name as I'm not Eddie Olycyks biggest fan lol. I am an OSU alum but I haven't watched more than one period of Ohio State hockey since Chicago boy Ryan Dzingel was lighting up the B1G

Enzo is my name as I'm not Eddie Olycyks biggest fan lol. I am an OSU alum but I haven't watched more than one period of Ohio State hockey since Chicago boy Ryan Dzingel was lighting up the B1G
- EnzoD

Ah, no worries. And sorry for the brain fart in calling you Edzo instead of Enzo. Didn't mean to lump you in with Eddie O, haha.