Are there websites that post combine results from past years? That would be interesting to look at.
- AEL_Fox

I just find their draft years and google "2014 NHL combine results." You'll get a couple sites with reviews of the top 10 in each category. I haven't found any with the full results for each player that participated.

Still say the diet thing is vastly overblown. He def came in to camp this year about 5-10 pounds lighter. Think that had to do with an overall training/diet regimen and a specific goal.

Did it work? Hard to say.

he looked pretty damn good in the worlds, then hurt his back and looked pretty anemic through the season til about midway through—when he started looking Old Toews dominant—at which point, I heard about the back injury and that he was feeling much better.

What happened after and in the playoffs? Hard to say. Recurrence of the back? (very possibly) Fatigue? Maybe he was playing at too light a weight.

This year should be telling. I just think (and I don't own stock in Onnit or have any connection to Joe Rogin) to blame Onnit is silly. They're just supplements, and lots of their endorser athletes do quite well while on it.

It's really other things with Toews.
- John Jaeckel

It's not the diet/supplements (although they are pseudo-scientific) that concerns people (as least me), it's the psychobabble BS about "suppressing you your ego" etc. and the focus on natural psychedelics and pot as performance-enhancing that are the other central tenants of the program.

If any one of the guys touting the program - Ladd, Oduya, Keith, Toews - had gotten noticeably better while on it, then it might not raise so many eyebrows.

So, yeah. . .

ETA: it was listening to Toews on a couple of podcasts with the Onnit founder that originally raised my concern. Among the topics: Toews learning how to not taking losses etc so hard or so personally (possibly good, but don't you want your athletes to care about losing?) and how business men microdosing LSD was helping their performance.

I never said that, though I multiple times said Hawks couldn't trade them and get cap space back as well as equal or better players for next year. I was right. I'm not surprised you didn't comprehend though, you see another teams tag on a user and instantly assume they are wrong unless agreeing with whatever Hawks fans hope to be true.
- Antilles

You were wrong.

And I agree with other team's posters quite frequently. You're just a troll.

Another factor to consider is that perennial floor teams are there because they do not have the revenue stream to support a salary range near the cap ceiling. In other words the cap ceiling is $75 mil. The cap floor is $55.4. Small market teams would lose their ass if they were paying salaries up to the cap ceiling. So they may have their own self imposed budget of let's say $65 to $70 mil (in actual salaries). So given a suitable incentive they could take on the Hossa contract.

They only payout $1mil per year for 4 years on Hossa's contrac. They take on a cap hit of $5.275mil for 4 years which means nothing to them. In consideration of them doing that they pick up assets (some combination of players, prospects and draft picks). I believe the Hawks could also retain $1 mil per year in salary so the receiving team would have no cash outlay.
- -Doh-

I think these contracts are insured and teams do not pay out any real dollars for players on LTIR. So, in effect, cap floor teams gain cap hit with no cost to their budgets.
Am I wrong here?

Thanks for those numbers. Never saw them before. I see guys like Schmaltz and TT as playing with explosion, that's their strength, not power. An explosion that is seen in quickness and burst.

That is seen in plays where they lift a stick, hit a seam or gain separation in large and small spaces. Their game is predicated on explosion not power. In fact if they bulk too much many times that takes away from their explosion. Not saying those kinds can't hit the weight room but if they do they still won't impress with their build. They work on accentuating their explosive strengths, not power.
- Mr Ricochet

I agree, he doesn't need to bulk up, but he should add strength and muscle tone. Schmaltz with his shirt off looks "chicken tendery" in his own words. Adding strength but maintaining weight would be ideal.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUxgcpvjPHn/

Are NHL players permitted to take things like creatine?

I agree, he doesn't need to bulk up, but he should add strength and muscle tone. Schmaltz with his shirt off looks "chicken tendery" in his own words. Adding strength but maintaining weight would be ideal.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUxgcpvjPHn/
- JRoenick97

This. Strength is important on the wall and dots.

For fans who read people who post about fancy numbers but kinda glaze over them, or just don't read the post, this place is helpful. Laid out nicely with regular stats too and is a capsule of fancy numbers. Here's Toews' from DobberHockey: http://frozenpool.dobbers...ers=325&games=2016-2017:R

I agree points per game are the stat to follow as long as it's over 50-60 games. Sample size needs to be large. Not many players play all 82 games so the only way to compare numbers is PPG.

But with a guy like Toews, Bergeron or Kopitar, all very similar players, their value goes way beyond PPG IMO. In this instance your super duper deep fancy stats generally bear that out and specifically to Al's points.

As far as Go Johnny Go is concerned I'm curious to know the short version of what age is generally thought to be when numbers start to decline for forwards? Last I knew it was 29 yrs old but I've never seen what that number is from the fancy stat world. Any data on that? Corsi especially I'd be interested to know at what age that number falls. You just can't get a value on guys like Toews, Bergeron or Kopitar from straight numbers.
- Mr Ricochet

I have never read any type of study which correlated age and decline in point production.... I use 30 only because a number ofi years sago I looked at a list of HOF
forwards and after 30 there was a significant drop off.

But there are many variables to consider and then there are freaks of nature like Jagr and Selane mixed in...

The training and preperation is different now but I'm not sure there is much that can be done to keep reflexes as sharp. That's where Father Time steps in and he never loses it's only a question of when he will win.

I think these contracts are insured and teams do not pay out any real dollars for players on LTIR. So, in effect, cap floor teams gain cap hit with no cost to their budgets.
Am I wrong here?
- 67hawks

They don't get the cap hit if the player goes on LTIR - which is how insurance would come in.

If they keep the player OFF of LTIR, they get the cap hit but have to pay the "salary" - no insurance.

At least, that's how I would see it.

Thanks for those numbers. Never saw them before. I see guys like Schmaltz and TT as playing with explosion, that's their strength, not power. An explosion that is seen in quickness and burst.

That is seen in plays where they lift a stick, hit a seam or gain separation in large and small spaces. Their game is predicated on explosion not power. In fact if they bulk too much many times that takes away from their explosion. Not saying those kinds can't hit the weight room but if they do they still won't impress with their build. They work on accentuating their explosive strengths, not power.
- Mr Ricochet

I agree in theory, except I will argue explosion is closely related to, if not essentially the same thing as power. Explosion is to me more related to shjort area quickness. But I digress . . .

Having done some youth coaching and strength training, my belief is having a pro body is as important mentally and psychologically as it is physically. I see kids in middle school lacrosse shying away from contact—and then ultimately getting over that fear as their bodies mature and they gain size and strength.

Physically, having a bigger, stronger body allows you to absorb and recover from hits easier as well.

And for Schmaltz, who really has the "game" of a center, improving in the tight areas in front of the net and in the faceoff dot (especially) will come to a great degree from gaining overall strength, especially core.

That $1m cash versus $5.25m cap hit I think is very attractive to a floor team. For that reason, I don't see the Hawks needing to give away the farm in a trade to move that contract. I see it as a small give.
- Cmonalready

There aren't any teams that look to be at risk of being blow the floor this season so if they make this move, it would be insurance for the future, which means they can wait. The Blackhawks would need to make it worth their while to make the trade now.

Another possibility is that they LTIR Hossa on the 2nd day of this season and trade his contract later in the season or next summer. Floor teams might be more willing then if the floor rises or their situations change.

I agree in theory, except I will argue explosion is closely related to, if not essentially the same thing as power. Explosion is to me more related to shjort area quickness. But I digress . . .

Having done some youth coaching and strength training, my belief is having a pro body is as important mentally and psychologically as it is physically. I see kids in middle school lacrosse shying away from contact—and then ultimately getting over that fear as their bodies mature and they gain size and strength.

Physically, having a bigger, stronger body allows you to absorb and recover from hits easier as well.

And for Schmaltz, who really has the "game" of a center, improving in the tight areas in front of the net and in the faceoff dot (especially) will come to a great degree from gaining overall strength, especially core.
- John Jaeckel

Agreed. Just saw that Schmaltz photo and his upper body is very frail for an athlete. His legs also looked frail, and curious how his game would improve with an additional 10-15 lbs balanced throughout his body.

I will say this.....in 2009 when I went to the convention and sat in on Kopecky and Hossa speaking and saw how jacked Hossa was........it was not surprising to me how he would dominate in the 1 on 1 drills and easily keep the puck away from opponents by using his off hand.

The other important note here is the more muscle surrounding the joint/bone allows for cushion to take heavy impact, assuming you still have flexibility and aren't "stiff". The guys who always come up with pulled muscles but are jacked draw red flags to me as that's a clear sign of PEDS

There aren't any teams that look to be at risk of being blow the floor this season so if they make this move, it would be insurance for the future, which means they can wait. The Blackhawks would need to make it worth their while to make the trade now.

Another possibility is that they LTIR Hossa on the 2nd day of this season and trade his contract later in the season or next summer. Floor teams might be more willing then if the floor rises or their situations change.
- matt_ahrens

I agree......I think he gets LTIR'd this year, and possibly moved some time this season or in the offseason depending upon what the cap does. Hard for a team like the Hawks who are always at the cap ceiling to dance the LTIR waltz each and every opening night to get under the cap.

Also heard Hine on the score this morning mention that defensive depth is a concern and hopeful that a fresh start will allow Murphy to reach his potential after a disappointing start to his career in ARZ.

Murphy may be the biggest variable to this season.....Even if 2/7/19/88 light it up, if Murphy doesn't fill a top 4 role, Hawks are going to be in DEEP trouble and that Hammer trade may lead to Bowman getting axed next offseason.

Lets hope the coaching staff can maximize the most of this group.

For fans who read people who post about fancy numbers but kinda glaze over them, or just don't read the post, this place is helpful. Laid out nicely with regular stats too and is a capsule of fancy numbers. Here's Toews' from DobberHockey: http://frozenpool.dobbers...ers=325&games=2016-2017:R

I agree points per game are the stat to follow as long as it's over 50-60 games. Sample size needs to be large. Not many players play all 82 games so the only way to compare numbers is PPG.

But with a guy like Toews, Bergeron or Kopitar, all very similar players, their value goes way beyond PPG IMO. In this instance your super duper deep fancy stats generally bear that out and specifically to Al's points.

As far as Go Johnny Go is concerned I'm curious to know the short version of what age is generally thought to be when numbers start to decline for forwards? Last I knew it was 29 yrs old but I've never seen what that number is from the fancy stat world. Any data on that? Corsi especially I'd be interested to know at what age that number falls. You just can't get a value on guys like Toews, Bergeron or Kopitar from straight numbers.
- Mr Ricochet

There's not really a study that shows just CF% peak/progression, I don't think. Most studies originally focused on point production, like this one that says common peak years are24-27, though elite players can go a few years longer (this is pre-lockout data but it holds today): http://hockeyfamilyadviso...yers-peak-hockey-metrics/

Some of the stats guys who focus on GAR/WAR believe a forwards' peak is between 23-26, but there's not a lot of data differentiating between high and low end forwards. I'm not sold on GAR/WAR as individual stats that can assess a player, either.

I agree in theory, except I will argue explosion is closely related to, if not essentially the same thing as power. Explosion is to me more related to shjort area quickness. But I digress . . .

Having done some youth coaching and strength training, my belief is having a pro body is as important mentally and psychologically as it is physically. I see kids in middle school lacrosse shying away from contact—and then ultimately getting over that fear as their bodies mature and they gain size and strength.

Physically, having a bigger, stronger body allows you to absorb and recover from hits easier as well.

And for Schmaltz, who really has the "game" of a center, improving in the tight areas in front of the net and in the faceoff dot (especially) will come to a great degree from gaining overall strength, especially core.
- John Jaeckel

IMO every player at the pro level should be in the weight room. And as I'm sure you know that in this day and age strength training is a science with a workout designed for each individual. A weak analogy would be a linemen and wide receiver strength train in a completely different way for specific needs to their position.

And to go further a farm boy has a different kind of strength than a city boy gym rat does.

My point is a Schmaltz will train much more similar to Kieth than he would Toews or Hossa. And as far as being big/strong enough to absorb contact again it's different depending on your foundation of play. Barry Sanders took many fewer hits than an Earl Campbell cuz he's so slippery, quick with instincts that allowed for him to rarely be hit solidly. I think a TT or Schmaltz falls into that category and would have a workout designed for explosiveness not power.

There's not really a study that shows just CF% peak/progression, I don't think. Most studies originally focused on point production, like this one that says common peak years are24-27, though elite players can go a few years longer (this is pre-lockout data but it holds today): http://hockeyfamilyadviso...yers-peak-hockey-metrics/

Some of the stats guys who focus on GAR/WAR believe a forwards' peak is between 23-26, but there's not a lot of data differentiating between high and low end forwards. I'm not sold on GAR/WAR as individual stats that can assess a player, either.


- L_B_R

You and me both.

I agree with Antilles about teams not lining up for Hossa's contract, since they're already above the floor. I can see why the Hawks would have to give up a pick and a good prospect to move his contract at this time. My (hypothetical) question is: if a team is below the floor, and getting a contract like this would really help them, why would Chicago have to trade a good prospect to have them take Hossa's contract?
- tvetter

Unless it is a team like NJ who has tons of cap space and is looking for some scoring. Could AA and hossa's contract head there for moore? I dont thing the devils have anyone major due for a new contract anytime soon

I agree in theory, except I will argue explosion is closely related to, if not essentially the same thing as power. Explosion is to me more related to shjort area quickness. But I digress . . .

Having done some youth coaching and strength training, my belief is having a pro body is as important mentally and psychologically as it is physically. I see kids in middle school lacrosse shying away from contact—and then ultimately getting over that fear as their bodies mature and they gain size and strength.

Physically, having a bigger, stronger body allows you to absorb and recover from hits easier as well.

And for Schmaltz, who really has the "game" of a center, improving in the tight areas in front of the net and in the faceoff dot (especially) will come to a great degree from gaining overall strength, especially core.
- John Jaeckel

Pilates....it's all about the core

I agree in theory, except I will argue explosion is closely related to, if not essentially the same thing as power. Explosion is to me more related to shjort area quickness. But I digress . . .

Having done some youth coaching and strength training, my belief is having a pro body is as important mentally and psychologically as it is physically. I see kids in middle school lacrosse shying away from contact—and then ultimately getting over that fear as their bodies mature and they gain size and strength.

Physically, having a bigger, stronger body allows you to absorb and recover from hits easier as well.

And for Schmaltz, who really has the "game" of a center, improving in the tight areas in front of the net and in the faceoff dot (especially) will come to a great degree from gaining overall strength, especially core.
- John Jaeckel

Yes, I agree and would add to that instinct, athleticism and leverage that CAN be reduced by the weight needed to add sheer power.

Pilates....it's all about the core
- dpard

Toews was doing Pilates like crazy last offseason.

Panarin was clearly full value for full value. Hjalmarsson was more about acquiring futures (that are beyond picks), actual players with so0me unknown upside.
- John Jaeckel

Agree.

... and Murphy may not be the player Hjalmarsson is now but he may actually have more talent. If he is coached up and maximizes it that could be a win (obviously a big if though).... and it was nowhere near what Antilles projected as a return. In fact, he/she/it suggested they may need to add an asset just to move the cap hit. Just another day in the troll campaign. The envy in that one runs deep.

Remember when, as a lawyer, Antilles guaranteed a Kane indictment was coming?

Looks like Colton Parayko may be UFA in 1 to 2 years. Tough, being a fan of a budget team.

Agree.

... and Murphy may not be the player Hjalmarsson is now but he may actually have more talent. If he is coached up and maximizes it that could be a win (obviously a big if though).... and it was nowhere near what Antilles projected as a return. In fact, he/she/it suggested they may need to add an asset just to move the cap hit. Just another day in the troll campaign. The envy in that one runs deep.

Remember when, as a lawyer, Antilles guaranteed a Kane indictment was coming?

Looks like Colton Parayko may be UFA in 1 to 2 years. Tough, being a fan of a budget team.
- tredbrta

That would be a major failure by the Blues.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/now
- Antilles

http://www.urbandictionar...om/define.php?term=douche

For teams close to the floor, don't they have to make sure they stay above the floor all season? i.e. if a team is near the floor and wants to become a seller at the deadline or things they might be, would they not need a bit more salary on the books to offset what they trade away.

And, you're right, they or Carolina or anyone else will not make any more deals one way or the other.

That's the point.

I have little doubt at this point, the Hawks are holding on to Hossa's deal and putitng him on LTIR this year.

COULD that change before 10/1? Yes, it could. Depending on a variety of factors.

But if it doesn't, there wlil very possibly be a floor team next summer that takes on the deal—either to use it for a subsequent year or two, or with the idea they can flip it some one else. Especially if Bowman throws in some sweetener to just get the administrative headache out of the way.

If your goal is to whiz on everyone's cornflakes here—and say the Hawks are "saddled" with the deal, that's silly and not grounded in fact.

Even if they DO hold on to the deal for four years, it's a logistical challenge and a $1 million expense at worst, but the dollars and cap relevance are . . . meh.

I'll take the action on Bowman not being able to move the deal eventually, because I believe he will, probably next summer before the draft.
- John Jaeckel

Bowman's urgency will be the greatest factor in the cost/return. If he takes his time and allows other teams to plan around taking on the deal there may be no cost at all - maybe too optimistic but time will be the key factor IMO. If Bowman decides it has to go this off season then I hope he has a deal in place.