And as soon as Hossa got away from Toews his shooting percentage normalized.

Hmmmmmmmm

Not sure you can say that Hossa was dragging anyone down. Especially if you look at his shooting percentage pre Toews (and that stupid cycle stuff \ weak half board shot).
- fattybeef

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the number of years with Toews where his percentage was in the teens. His percentage took a dive when Saad went away from that line. Toews was not dragging him down, the rotating LW of nobodies was.

One of the team's problems the past two seasons has been 5x5 production - Looking at Toews' 5x5 stats the past 5 seasons (and I haven't looked at the rankings, only the raw scores):

Pts/60: 3.3-2.3-2.2-1.6-1.9
CF%: 57.5-59.3-55.8-51.0-51.8

If I'm reading those correctly, that's a pretty dramatic decline (recognizing that CF especially is very team-dependent.

But even without looking at the stats - has he been (and will he become again) the guy who "willed" the goal almost by himself against Vancouver to send game 7 to OT?

He hasn't been since the last Cup team.
- StLBravesFan

The points/60 isn't really a steep decline - it's exactly in line with gradual decline of age/general scoring going down in the NHL. The lockout shortened season needs to be removed, first of all - the sample size difference between it and the other seasons adds too much variance. If we acknowledge that the 2015/16 season was an anomaly, which is obviously is, the progression is: 2.2 to 2.1 to 1.9. That's perfectly normal, especially as Toews 5v5 time has increased (a thing that needs to be acknowledged when using per 60 stats). For example: Bergeron's 4 year P/60 5v5: 2.2 to 2.0 to 1.8 to 1.5; and Kopitar's 4 year P/60 5v5: 2.0 to 1.8 to 2.1 to 1.4 (Kopitar had the opposite happen to him in 15/16 where he rode a high PDO to an increase).

CF% is definitely impacted by team changes over time, including how depth has eroded and thus Toews deployment/role shifted.

I think the underlying truth is this is exactly why teams have Anisimovs, Hanzels, and bigger guys to match up against top line centres so Toews has room in both sides of his game to make plays that set up looks.
- wiz1901

Well, it was Kruger against Kesler in that Anaheim series and Bolland/Kruger against Zetterberg, neither of which were near the size of guys like AA or Hanzal. Wouldn't mind a big center to help out more, but I'll settle for just a guy who knows how to work those types of players so that Toews can focus on other things.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the number of years with Toews where his percentage was in the teens. His percentage took a dive when Saad went away from that line. Toews was not dragging him down, the rotating LW of nobodies was.
- JRoenick97

To the eye, Toews needs to be a helluva lot better. Was he injured throughout last year? Who knows......but he was largely ineffective for a good portion of games and really forced the Russians/Kane to pick up the team scoring.

I keep saying it, and I'll say it again........Guys like Seabrook, Keith, and Toews really need to look at 88 and how he works at his game and improve theirs. Period. Those 3 Canadian triplets IMO seem very content on where they are at skill wise, where it seems Kane is constantly improving in each facet......Kane came in as 1 dimensional player and has improved his skating, shooting, and 2 way play.

If our leadership did that, Hawks wouldn't have to worry who's playing LW with 19, etc.

Lets hope those 3 guys are hitting the offseason hard.

Well yes the price to acquire one of these types is a question but what are the cap implications, and allocation of cap money, of signing E Kane or Duchene long term when he's a UFA in 2019/20?

Swapping AA money for Duchene money seems good but AA for E Kane leaves the 2C slot open unless Schmaltz is ready.
- Mr Ricochet

Exactly: “You can’t start the season with zero cap space, then expect when two guys get hurt to play short-handed all year,” Bowman said. “It’s not a functional way to run your team. . . . There’s certainly not as much room as people think.”

If Bowman does indeed go the in season route, he'll want to get right up to the cap to maximize all of Hossa's LTIR cap money, before he moves him to LTIR. How and when he decides to utilize that money is the big unknown. Lots of different ways he could go. But the bottom line is he doesn't want to utilize all of it, he wants some room to maneuver during the season.

And as soon as Hossa got away from Toews his shooting percentage normalized.

Hmmmmmmmm

Not sure you can say that Hossa was dragging anyone down. Especially if you look at his shooting percentage pre Toews (and that stupid cycle stuff \ weak half board shot).
- fattybeef

Watching Hossa play, he had a very difficult time finishing and beating goalies. He wasn't shooting well (injury or some other issue maybe?) but he found his shooting groove again this last season. I don't think it has anything to do with his line-mates, but Hossa even with his bounce back, was still only like 75-80% of the guy he used to be. The guy has been in decline (natural given his age) and that does affect his line-mates.

Or you could go with the theory that Hossa doesn't age and that Kruger is a better offense C than Toews.

To the eye, Toews needs to be a helluva lot better. Was he injured throughout last year? Who knows......but he was largely ineffective for a good portion of games and really forced the Russians/Kane to pick up the team scoring.

I keep saying it, and I'll say it again........Guys like Seabrook, Keith, and Toews really need to look at 88 and how he works at his game and improve theirs. Period. Those 3 Canadian triplets IMO seem very content on where they are at skill wise, where it seems Kane is constantly improving in each facet......Kane came in as 1 dimensional player and has improved his skating, shooting, and 2 way play.

If our leadership did that, Hawks wouldn't have to worry who's playing LW with 19, etc.

Lets hope those 3 guys are hitting the offseason hard.
- SteveRain

Toews scored 28 goals each of the previous 3 seasons before this last one. His role obviously changed with the departure of Saad, but he still scored. His assists were down, as he lost a big finisher on his left side and Hossa could put the puck in the net. Toews demise is largely over reactionary. Where he has struggled is shutting guys down, but losing depth will do that when you're getting deployed against top lines more often. He may have been suffering a back injury, but he was still producing. Toews gets more criticism because he is paid 10.5m. Kane has produced at the same level for years, barring the crazy year with Panarin 2 seasons ago, but he normalized again last season. Kane gets less criticism as he is simply paid to score, and he does. Toews gets paid to score, defend, win faceoffs, lead the team, etc...

To the eye, Toews needs to be a helluva lot better. Was he injured throughout last year? Who knows......but he was largely ineffective for a good portion of games and really forced the Russians/Kane to pick up the team scoring.

I keep saying it, and I'll say it again........Guys like Seabrook, Keith, and Toews really need to look at 88 and how he works at his game and improve theirs. Period. Those 3 Canadian triplets IMO seem very content on where they are at skill wise, where it seems Kane is constantly improving in each facet......Kane came in as 1 dimensional player and has improved his skating, shooting, and 2 way play.

If our leadership did that, Hawks wouldn't have to worry who's playing LW with 19, etc.

Lets hope those 3 guys are hitting the offseason hard.
- SteveRain

As you have clearly studied the training regimen and are privy to what the coaches are telling the Hawks core players, please elaborate? I mean, why didn't anyone tell them to keep trying?

Toews scored 28 goals each of the previous 3 seasons before this last one. His role obviously changed with the departure of Saad, but he still scored. His assists were down, as he lost a big finisher on his left side and Hossa could put the puck in the net. Toews demise is largely over reactionary. Where he has struggled is shutting guys down, but losing depth will do that when you're getting deployed against top lines more often. He may have been suffering a back injury, but he was still producing. Toews gets more criticism because he is paid 10.5m. Kane has produced at the same level for years, barring the crazy year with Panarin 2 seasons ago, but he normalized again last season. Kane gets less criticism as he is simply paid to score, and he does. Toews gets paid to score, defend, win faceoffs, lead the team, etc...
- JRoenick97

I disagree.......Kruger was still here, and Toews in years past has always been paired up against a top 2 line.....nothing changed. Depth was still there, it was inability to produce that hurt him, and hurt this team a lot.

And it's not on Toews alone.....2, 4, 7 were all equally horrible last year for large portions, including the playoffs.

Toews needs to be better and I think he will..........

I disagree.......Kruger was still here, and Toews in years past has always been paired up against a top 2 line.....nothing changed. Depth was still there, it was inability to produce that hurt him, and hurt this team a lot.

And it's not on Toews alone.....2, 4, 7 were all equally horrible last year for large portions, including the playoffs.

Toews needs to be better and I think he will..........
- SteveRain

Inability to produce? In the 3 straight seasons of 28 goals? Or when he looked healthy and ran the league and got player of the month with a rookie and Panik on his flanks? The depth of this team is not even close to what it was.

Huh. I could swear there is. OK.
- John Jaeckel

This is everything in the CBA up to the examples. I don't think there is any restriction on player position.

Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the
event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to
perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her
opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i)
twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club
desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active
Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase
the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as,
and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to
challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the
Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly
confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination
regarding the Player's fitness to play.
(i) A Club seeking to exercise the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness
Exception must simultaneously so notify Central Registry and the
NHLPA, in writing, before any Player replacing an unfit-to-play Player
shall be permitted to play with the Club;
(ii) The Player Salary and Bonuses of the Player that has been deemed unfitto-play
shall continue to be counted toward the Club's Averaged Club
Salary as well as count against the Players' Share during the League Year
in which the Player is deemed unfit-to-play (including during the period
such unfit-to-play Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness
Exception Conditioning Loan to another league);
(iii) The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or Players
that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the aggregate exceed
the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player
who the Club is replacing;
(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that
replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged
Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches
the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the
addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have
replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfitto-play
Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is
on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to
another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its
Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the
Player being able to rejoin the Club. To the extent any Player who is
unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of the Roster Freeze set
forth in Article 13, the provisions of this Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring aClub to come back into compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede
the provisions of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster
Freeze;

As you have clearly studied the training regimen and are privy to what the coaches are telling the Hawks core players, please elaborate? I mean, why didn't anyone tell them to keep trying?
- breadbag

Funny....I know blasphemy that I dare criticize the Hawks core guys for being sub par. I am not a fan......why do I even root for this team?

Please......all 3 were bad. Do you honestly think 2/7/19 individual games have gotten better the same way 88s has? 88 is no longer a defensive liability and back checks thanks to a large part watching the best 2 way F the NHL has seen in a long time in Hossa.

Yes, read up on 2/19s training and supplement use and maybe that will answer some questions.

Fun facts about Campbell as he hangs em up

Benjamin Wendorf‏ @BenjaminWendorf
Brian Campbell was drafted at a time (97) when being a skilled, small defenseman was toxic to your pick #. He outlasted his entire D cohort.

Campbell was the primary assist on Kane's 2010 SC clinching goal

Satchel Price‏Verified account @SatchelPrice
Full list of NHL defensemen with more points than Brian Campbell since 2005: Duncan Keith, Shea Weber, Zdeno Chara.

"The Hit" https://www.youtube.com/w...fbrYE&ab_channel=bdauer39

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the number of years with Toews where his percentage was in the teens. His percentage took a dive when Saad went away from that line. Toews was not dragging him down, the rotating LW of nobodies was.
- JRoenick97

When Toews had higher numbers as well because they were running and gunning up the ice with Sharp on the off side.

Inability to produce? In the 3 straight seasons of 28 goals? Or when he looked healthy and ran the league and got player of the month with a rookie and Panik on his flanks? The depth of this team is not even close to what it was.
- JRoenick97

I'm talking last year.....21 goals if we are just focusing on goals, which seems like you are.

IMO, Toews should hover around 1 ppg. 75+ points per year isn't a reach for him, and should be the bar.

high 50s? Not good enough.

I'm talking last year.....21 goals if we are just focusing on goals, which seems like you are.

IMO, Toews should hover around 1 ppg. 75+ points per year isn't a reach for him, and should be the bar.

high 50s? Not good enough.
- SteveRain

If we are just talking last year, yeah, he looked streaky and had an injury, plus he was being flanked by a Schmaltz and Panik. That's not exactly Saad/Hossa. I was speaking more to the overall idea he has continually declined, which is overblown. Also, team depth last year was not great.

You know he's only been over 70 points once in his career, right? I don't think the bar is set that high. High 60's is his average.

Toews scored 28 goals each of the previous 3 seasons before this last one. His role obviously changed with the departure of Saad, but he still scored. His assists were down, as he lost a big finisher on his left side and Hossa could put the puck in the net. Toews demise is largely over reactionary. Where he has struggled is shutting guys down, but losing depth will do that when you're getting deployed against top lines more often. He may have been suffering a back injury, but he was still producing. Toews gets more criticism because he is paid 10.5m. Kane has produced at the same level for years, barring the crazy year with Panarin 2 seasons ago, but he normalized again last season. Kane gets less criticism as he is simply paid to score, and he does. Toews gets paid to score, defend, win faceoffs, lead the team, etc...
- JRoenick97

Toews decline started in 15-16. While he had 28g, 5 were in 3 on 3 and I think he had 1 or 2 empty net goals too.

Kane has improved he game every year despite the criticism he got early on - regardless of who he played with, which may be why he gets less criticism as the years have gone on. Toews' game, to some, hasn't improved. And while it's argued that he hasn't had a regular LW since Saad left - well maybe that's why he was good in the first place. Having Saad on one side and the best defensive RW in the game on his other side. They made his job much easier and made him a bit better than he really is. Not having those two exposed him.

I disagree.......Kruger was still here, and Toews in years past has always been paired up against a top 2 line.....nothing changed. Depth was still there, it was inability to produce that hurt him, and hurt this team a lot.

And it's not on Toews alone.....2, 4, 7 were all equally horrible last year for large portions, including the playoffs.

Toews needs to be better and I think he will..........
- SteveRain

Hopefully it was just an off year for Toews he wasn't his best at the dot last season either:

Toews 2014/15 FO ranked 9th 56.5%

Toews 2015/16 FO ranked 2nd 58.6%

Toews 2016/17 FO ranked 18th 54.9%

Toews decline started in 15-16. While he had 28g, 5 were in 3 on 3 and I think he had 1 or 2 empty net goals too.

Kane has improved he game every year despite the criticism he got early on - regardless of who he played with, which may be why he gets less criticism as the years have gone on. Toews' game, to some, hasn't improved. And while it's argued that he hasn't had a regular LW since Saad left - well maybe that's why he was good in the first place. Having Saad on one side and the best defensive RW in the game on his other side. They made his job much easier and made him a bit better than he really is. Not having those two exposed him.
- PatShart

Show me a center that can still maintain his top end numbers while losing a player the quality of Saad and having his RW shoot % cut in half for 2 seasons. I'm surprised he kept putting up 28 goals. Maybe Crosby can do it.

If we are just talking last year, yeah, he looked streaky and had an injury, plus he was being flanked by a Schmaltz and Panik. That's not exactly Saad/Hossa. I was speaking more to the overall idea he has continually declined, which is overblown. Also, team depth last year was not great.

You know he's only been over 70 points once in his career, right? I don't think the bar is set that high. High 60's is his average.
- JRoenick97

Points per game is where I am looking.....

From his rookie year until 2014 he was at .84 (08, 09) to 1.02 each time.......last 3 years he has dipped to .81 to .73 to .81

He can be a .9 PPG player.....he has done it 5 years (.89 I rounded up....)

That's what I expect.....9 ppg, 30+ goals, and a great 2 way guy....that's the guy this team NEEDS.

Points per game is where I am looking.....

From his rookie year until 2014 he was at .84 (08, 09) to 1.02 each time.......last 3 years he has dipped to .81 to .73 to .81

He can be a .9 PPG player.....he has done it 5 years (.89 I rounded up....)

That's what I expect.....9 ppg, 30+ goals, and a great 2 way guy....that's the guy this team NEEDS.
- SteveRain

I think if he got back to his high 60s and shutting down guys next season, we'd do a lot better. Especially in the playoffs. I expect more with Saad back.

To the eye, Toews needs to be a helluva lot better. Was he injured throughout last year? Who knows......but he was largely ineffective for a good portion of games and really forced the Russians/Kane to pick up the team scoring.

I keep saying it, and I'll say it again........Guys like Seabrook, Keith, and Toews really need to look at 88 and how he works at his game and improve theirs. Period. Those 3 Canadian triplets IMO seem very content on where they are at skill wise, where it seems Kane is constantly improving in each facet......Kane came in as 1 dimensional player and has improved his skating, shooting, and 2 way play.

If our leadership did that, Hawks wouldn't have to worry who's playing LW with 19, etc.

Lets hope those 3 guys are hitting the offseason hard.
- SteveRain

Good thing they didn't trade Kaner

If we are just talking last year, yeah, he looked streaky and had an injury, plus he was being flanked by a Schmaltz and Panik. That's not exactly Saad/Hossa. I was speaking more to the overall idea he has continually declined, which is overblown. Also, team depth last year was not great.

You know he's only been over 70 points once in his career, right? I don't think the bar is set that high. High 60's is his average.
- JRoenick97

While he topped 70 once, lets look at that -

Rookie year - 54pts in 64gms - pace for 69
08-09 - 69pts in 82gms
09-10 - 68pts in 76gms (pace for 73pts)
10-11 - 76pts
11-12 - 57pts in 59gms (pace for 79pts)
12-13 - 48pts in 47gms (pace for 84pts)
13-14 - 68pts in 76gms (pace for 73pts)

440pts in 484gms - .91ppg clip/avg 75pp season

Last 3 seasons - 233gms - 182pts - .78ppg/avg 64pp season - and these points include the gimmick 3 on 3 hockey points accumulated

The team didn't win a post season game in 2017. They ended the season up against the cap with a roster mainly consisting of 1) highly paid players taking up a lot of cap room, 2) mostly unproven, inexperienced young players. 3) veterans well past their primes, and Richard Panik (didn't fit any category, couldn't think of others who fit with him.) What is it that you wanted them to do?
- matt_ahrens

The fact that Panik doesn't fit into any of these categories underscores what a great pickup he was IMO

Points per game is where I am looking.....

From his rookie year until 2014 he was at .84 (08, 09) to 1.02 each time.......last 3 years he has dipped to .81 to .73 to .81

He can be a .9 PPG player.....he has done it 5 years (.89 I rounded up....)

That's what I expect.....9 ppg, 30+ goals, and a great 2 way guy....that's the guy this team NEEDS.
- SteveRain

Your expectations need to adjust. Scoring is down in the NHL and players typically start to decline in production around his age. Not all, but most, though decline in production does not mean decline elsewhere. Listen, only about 8-10 centers score at a .9+ PPG a year and almost all of them are primarily offensive centers and/or have primarily offensive linemates. Toews is never going to have a Ovechkin or Perry or Laine, but that's fine - Toews scoring at a .81 PPG while maintaining his other play is good. Saad will help more with the other areas of his role more so than his production imo.