Didn't the Blackhawks use the Kane LTIR in 2015 to acquire Vermette, Desi, and Timonen? 2 forwards and a D.
- matt_ahrens

Yeah, but I could swear at the time that Vermette was necessary in part because he satisfied a reuglation re: "replacement" (as a F), apparently not . . .

And as soon as Hossa got away from Toews his shooting percentage normalized.

Hmmmmmmmm

Not sure you can say that Hossa was dragging anyone down. Especially if you look at his shooting percentage pre Toews (and that stupid cycle stuff \ weak half board shot).
- fattybeef

Yeah, I always found the "Hossa can't finish anymore" narrative somewhat . . . suspect.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the number of years with Toews where his percentage was in the teens. His percentage took a dive when Saad went away from that line. Toews was not dragging him down, the rotating LW of nobodies was.
- JRoenick97

Evidence would suggest.

Toews scored 28 goals each of the previous 3 seasons before this last one. His role obviously changed with the departure of Saad, but he still scored. His assists were down, as he lost a big finisher on his left side and Hossa could put the puck in the net. Toews demise is largely over reactionary. Where he has struggled is shutting guys down, but losing depth will do that when you're getting deployed against top lines more often. He may have been suffering a back injury, but he was still producing. Toews gets more criticism because he is paid 10.5m. Kane has produced at the same level for years, barring the crazy year with Panarin 2 seasons ago, but he normalized again last season. Kane gets less criticism as he is simply paid to score, and he does. Toews gets paid to score, defend, win faceoffs, lead the team, etc...
- JRoenick97

Every word of this. Spot on.

Points per game is where I am looking.....

From his rookie year until 2014 he was at .84 (08, 09) to 1.02 each time.......last 3 years he has dipped to .81 to .73 to .81

He can be a .9 PPG player.....he has done it 5 years (.89 I rounded up....)

That's what I expect.....9 ppg, 30+ goals, and a great 2 way guy....that's the guy this team NEEDS.
- SteveRain

>Spot on about #19, #2, and #7 needing to be much better
>We covered this before, but in a word, Toews offensive game is currently "STALE"
>In 5 on 5, #19 needs to be much more dynamic off the rush -- including beating defenders 1 on 1 with the puck, creating scoring chances for others, and playing at
a much higher speed overall
>"Young Johnny" didn't need special wingers in his early years to be dangerous on the rush
>On the Power Play, the coaching staff needs to utilize Toews in a way that elevates the entire PP -- #19 standing still at the side of the net, at the goal line, has not worked very well
>The top NHL PPs are using their "Toews" in the high slot as a distributor, high-tipper, high-screener, or quick-shooter
>Finding a productive role for Toews on the PP beyond winning draws will make a big difference

Hopefully it was just an off year for Toews he wasn't his best at the dot last season either:

Toews 2014/15 FO ranked 9th 56.5%

Toews 2015/16 FO ranked 2nd 58.6%

Toews 2016/17 FO ranked 18th 54.9%
- walleyeb1

Will just tell you, and I heard this from someone who heard it from Toews himself, NOT having a solid secondary faceoff option puts a big workload burden on him. And the Hawks know this. This is at least partially why Toews himself lobbied for them to go after Duchene this past January.

Also why I believe the Hawks would very much like to have this issue put to bed at some point soon.

Change of subject:

The remaining arbitration dates are as follows:

July 20 – Colton Parayko (St. Louis), Tomas Tatar (Detroit)

Originally scheduled: Tyler Johnson (Tampa Bay) who signed a seven-year, $35MM contract.

July 21 – Ryan Dzingel (Ottawa)

Originally scheduled: Michael Chaput (Vancouver) who signed a one-year, $688K contract

July 22 – Viktor Arvidsson (Nashville)

Originally scheduled: Micheal Ferland (Calgary) who signed a two-year, $3.5MM contract.

July 24 – Austin Watson (Nashville), Brian Dumoulin (Pittsburgh)

July 25 – Mika Zibanejad (NY Rangers)

Originally scheduled: Joey LaLeggia (Edmonton) who signed a one-year, two-way, $700K contract and Ondrej Palat (Tampa Bay) who signed a five-year, $26.5MM contract.

July 26 – Jordan Martinook (Arizona), Ryan Spooner (Boston)

July 27 – Robin Lehner (Buffal0), Marek Mazanec (Nashville)

July 28 – (none)

Originally scheduled: Jean-Gabriel Pageau (Ottawa) who signed a three-year, $9.3MM contract.

July 31 – Matt Nieto (Colorado)

August 1 – Connor Hellebuyck (Winnipeg), Reid Boucher (Vancouver)

August 2 – Calvin de Haan (NY Islanders)

Originally scheduled: Kevin Gravel (Los Angeles) who signed a one-year, two-way, $650K contract.

August 3 – Nate Schmidt (Vegas), Nino Niederreiter (Minnesota)

August 4 – Mikael Granlund (Minnesota), Conor Sheary (Pittsburgh), Nathan Beaulieu (Buffalo)

Yeah, I always found the "Hossa can't finish anymore" narrative somewhat . . . suspect.
- John Jaeckel

To my untrained eye, it seemed that Hoss shot a fair amount of shots on breakaways over the past two years int the goalies chest.

>Spot on about #19, #2, and #7 needing to be much better
>We covered this before, but in a word, Toews offensive game is currently "STALE"
>In 5 on 5, #19 needs to be much more dynamic off the rush -- including beating defenders 1 on 1 with the puck, creating scoring chances for others, and playing at
a much higher speed overall
>"Young Johnny" didn't need special wingers in his early years to be dangerous on the rush
>On the Power Play, the coaching staff needs to utilize Toews in a way that elevates the entire PP -- #19 standing still at the side of the net, at the goal line, has not worked very well
>The top NHL PPs are using their "Toews" in the high slot as a distributor, high-tipper, high-screener, or quick-shooter
>Finding a productive role for Toews on the PP beyond winning draws will make a big difference
- SnapitUpstairs

Thanks and great to hear from you...hope your summer is going well.

100% agreed on a power play refresh not only for Toews but a complete system overhaul. Seems to me toews also drifted further wide and eliminated challenging the goalie from goal line to front of the net creating a high chance scoring play and usually creating secondary chances off scrum, rebound on his stuff attempt.

I am 19/2/7 fan but just feel all need to be better.

100% agreed on the wingers 19 playing with never was a concern, but since his decline the last 3 years, now it's a narrative for defense of him. He has elite skill and needs to use it more. Too much it seems he dumbs down his play to a grinder type player, not the elite skill player he has shown he can be...when HE wants to be.

This team goes how 19/2/7/88 go.....I am hopeful all will come back hungry, and improved over what we saw last year. Hopefully their pride wont' tolerate the results of the last 2 springs....

Show me a center that can still maintain his top end numbers while losing a player the quality of Saad and having his RW shoot % cut in half for 2 seasons. I'm surprised he kept putting up 28 goals. Maybe Crosby can do it.
- JRoenick97

Yes, exactly. And I'm surprised people keep dismissing the notion of chemistry between players/lines like it's not a thing. It totally is.

Like, there is this belief that Crosby and Kane can both play with anyone, but that's not exactly true - there should be an "almost" added to that sentence because there are clear incidences of them not clicking with certain guys. Crosby can't seem to work with Kessel, for example. They just don't mesh for some reason. Who knows why. Kane didn't work with Handzus, at least in term of points. That one is more obvious. Kane also doesn't seem to work with Panik, though that's likely due to Panik not being as good on the left. Either way, there are definitely players that even the most adaptable players like Crosby and Kane with whom they don't click.

So imo it doesn't make Toews a lesser player because he didn't click with an assortment of bottom 6 LW. The fact that he was able to still produce at a top 6 level was good. They finally put him with guys he did work with, he produced more. So now that we've acquired Saad, a player that has shown great chemistry with Toews, it's likely that Toews will produce even more (as well as help in other areas). I think .9+ PPG is unrealistic, and expectation should be around .85/6 PPG, but anything can happen when given the proper linemates. I'm highly optimistic for that pairing.

Will just tell you, and I heard this from someone who heard it from Toews himself, NOT having a solid secondary faceoff option puts a big workload burden on him. And the Hawks know this. This is at least partially why Toews himself lobbied for them to go after Duchene this past January.

Also why I believe the Hawks would very much like to have this issue put to bed at some point soon.
- John Jaeckel

Id have to double check the numbers.......

but in 2010, 2013, 2014, and 2015 when they won the cup and took LA to 7.....did they have a viable secondary face off man? I know Vermette was here for a brief period......but I don't recall Bolland being great on the dot.......Kane essentially had a rotating door on his line......

Yes, exactly. And I'm surprised people keep dismissing the notion of chemistry between players/lines like it's not a thing. It totally is.

Like, there is this belief that Crosby and Kane can both play with anyone, but that's not exactly true - there should be an "almost" added to that sentence because there are clear incidences of them not clicking with certain guys. Crosby can't seem to work with Kessel, for example. They just don't mesh for some reason. Who knows why. Kane didn't work with Handzus, at least in term of points. That one is more obvious. Kane also doesn't seem to work with Panik, though that's likely due to Panik not being as good on the left. Either way, there are definitely players that even the most adaptable players like Crosby and Kane with whom they don't click.

So imo it doesn't make Toews a lesser player because he didn't click with an assortment of bottom 6 LW. The fact that he was able to still produce at a top 6 level was good. They finally put him with guys he did work with, he produced more. So now that we've acquired Saad, a player that has shown great chemistry with Toews, it's likely that Toews will produce even more (as well as help in other areas). I think .9+ PPG is unrealistic, and expectation should be around .85/6 PPG, but anything can happen when given the proper linemates. I'm highly optimistic for that pairing.
- L_B_R

At times I get frustrated with 19, because you know there is more there.......he has shown elite skill. Lets be honest....his defensive game hasn't been the greatest as of late either.

I'd take .85+ PPG per year from 19 all day long. I truly think he will come back a lot stronger, better, etc........but if he continues to hover around .81 and below PPG Hawks have a problem brewing there......

Id have to double check the numbers.......

but in 2010, 2013, 2014, and 2015 when they won the cup and took LA to 7.....did they have a viable secondary face off man? I know Vermette was here for a brief period......but I don't recall Bolland being great on the dot.......Kane essentially had a rotating door on his line......
- SteveRain

Davey Boy was a gamer. Overall his FO% was typically in the mid-upper 40's but when it counted, he'd scrum the rubber somehow someway especially in the playoffs/late in crucial games.

FWIW, AA at least in my opinion, is just not a warrior. His eyes when the going gets tough are worrisome. No ice in his veins. Dutch is a warrior. Pony up what needs to be ponied up and go get him. Without him, Hawks are middle of the pack in the Central. I will say AA is a good player and does a lot of intangibles but come playoff time, they need a warrior at 2C a la Zus/Vermo

>Spot on about #19, #2, and #7 needing to be much better
>We covered this before, but in a word, Toews offensive game is currently "STALE"
>In 5 on 5, #19 needs to be much more dynamic off the rush -- including beating defenders 1 on 1 with the puck, creating scoring chances for others, and playing at
a much higher speed overall
>"Young Johnny" didn't need special wingers in his early years to be dangerous on the rush
>On the Power Play, the coaching staff needs to utilize Toews in a way that elevates the entire PP -- #19 standing still at the side of the net, at the goal line, has not worked very well
>The top NHL PPs are using their "Toews" in the high slot as a distributor, high-tipper, high-screener, or quick-shooter
>Finding a productive role for Toews on the PP beyond winning draws will make a big difference
- SnapitUpstairs

What do you mean about "Young Johnny" not having special wingers - he had one or two of Kane, Sharp, and Hossa on his wing almost exclusively for his entire career prior to his last two seasons. He had some time with a younger/better Brouwer in there too and then came Saad. When has he ever had bottom 6 players playing on his wing except over the last two seasons? Not many 1Cs play with bottom 6 wingers over a long period and succeed. Crosby is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's done it recently. Shaw plugged for a minute, but the rotating cast of Garbutt, TT, and Tikhonov isn't likely to cut it long term for a lot of guys.

>Spot on about #19, #2, and #7 needing to be much better
>We covered this before, but in a word, Toews offensive game is currently "STALE"
>In 5 on 5, #19 needs to be much more dynamic off the rush -- including beating defenders 1 on 1 with the puck, creating scoring chances for others, and playing at
a much higher speed overall
>"Young Johnny" didn't need special wingers in his early years to be dangerous on the rush
>On the Power Play, the coaching staff needs to utilize Toews in a way that elevates the entire PP -- #19 standing still at the side of the net, at the goal line, has not worked very well
>The top NHL PPs are using their "Toews" in the high slot as a distributor, high-tipper, high-screener, or quick-shooter
>Finding a productive role for Toews on the PP beyond winning draws will make a big difference
- SnapitUpstairs

Toews finished 18th for C in even strength total points (in a season where he missed 10 games and played hurt)

The handful of guys that were better in a significant way (more than just a few points)

McDavid - This kid is gifted and played with a very talented Draisaitl.
Scheifele - Played with Ehlers, Wheeler, Laine all year
Crosby - Played with Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, Guentzel (not all top line talent, but definitely an upgrade compared to Panik, Schmatlz, Hayden, etc..)
Backstrom - played almost exclusively with Oshie and Ovie
Getzlaf - Played with Perry and Rakell mostly.

Crosby is always gonna have the offensive numbers over Toews, but all of the other C who were a clear step ahead of Toews at even strength had some real legit NHL wingers.

The PP for Toews changed a lot with AA on the scene and the clear strategy to have #72 load up a one timer.

Don't be fooled because of the weakness of the forward depth on the team. Here is another consideration...how important is the first goal of the game? Kane/Toews among the league leaders in that regard 2nd and 4th respectively with most opening goals. These guys are the leaders of this team and the key to the success up front. The tales of Toews decline are so overblown, it is ridiculous.

At times I get frustrated with 19, because you know there is more there.......he has shown elite skill. Lets be honest....his defensive game hasn't been the greatest as of late either.

I'd take .85+ PPG per year from 19 all day long. I truly think he will come back a lot stronger, better, etc........but if he continues to hover around .81 and below PPG Hawks have a problem brewing there......
- SteveRain

The difference between .81 and .85 is like 3.28 points over a full season. I'm not sure how 3-4 points is a problem.

At times I get frustrated with 19, because you know there is more there.......he has shown elite skill. Lets be honest....his defensive game hasn't been the greatest as of late either.

I'd take .85+ PPG per year from 19 all day long. I truly think he will come back a lot stronger, better, etc........but if he continues to hover around .81 and below PPG Hawks have a problem brewing there......
- SteveRain

>All is well, thanks -- summer moving too fast, though
>Indeed, want #19, #2, #7, #88 to all have banner years -- team needs it
>Mentioned this before, too, -- watching Crosby more closely in this year's playoffs without the puck in the OZ was interesting
>#87 did a lot of "darting" in and out of high-traffic areas in the slot to retrieve the puck and avoid getting bear-hugged (usually)
>The OZ "darting" and constant movement is something #19 can review in his game
>Though during his peak month this season, #19 was a monster in PP shot retrieval -- though most retrievals were not in front of the net
>Perhaps #19 should look at his "energy expenditure" in the OZ -- Is he getting the best return for his effort?

The difference between .81 and .85 is like 3.28 points over a full season. I'm not sure how 3-4 points is a problem.
- L_B_R

That difference (or more) is probably made up of Schmaltz passing up shots and Panik struggling to handle a hot pass.

What do you mean about "Young Johnny" not having special wingers - he had one or two of Kane, Sharp, and Hossa on his wing almost exclusively for his entire career prior to his last two seasons. He had some time with a younger/better Brouwer in there too and then came Saad. When has he ever had bottom 6 players playing on his wing except over the last two seasons? Not many 1Cs play with bottom 6 wingers over a long period and succeed. Crosby is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's done it recently. Shaw plugged for a minute, but the rotating cast of Garbutt, TT, and Tikhonov isn't likely to cut it long term for a lot of guys.
- L_B_R

wasn't panik on his line last year?

Here's devils advocate for you......Replace Saad with Hossa, and keep 19/14 the same.....does 19s production go up that much more because of 20 coming in for 81 as 14 is still a constant variable alongside 19.....

>All is well, thanks -- summer moving too fast, though
>Indeed, want #19, #2, #7, #88 to all have banner years -- team needs it
>Mentioned this before, too, -- watching Crosby more closely in this year's playoffs without the puck in the OZ was interesting
>#87 did a lot of "darting" in and out of high-traffic areas in the slot to retrieve the puck and avoid getting bear-hugged (usually)
>The OZ "darting" and constant movement is something #19 can review in his game
>Though during his peak month this season, #19 was a monster in PP shot retrieval -- though most retrievals were not in front of the net
>Perhaps #19 should look at his "energy expenditure" in the OZ -- Is he getting the best return for his effort?
- SnapitUpstairs

Good to hear....

watched a lot of playoff hockey. Was very impressed with MacDavid. That kid is going to be something when he puts it all together. Oilers remind a lot of the 2008-09 Hawks. That's the bench mark in the west.....

Agreed on Crosby. His ability to find open space and know where the puck is going to be is extremely impressive. I agree with you on the energy Toews releases in the offensive zone and if he's getting value for it.......that's whY I contend his biggest problems at a time is playing more a checking game in the offensive zone and working the boards, puck retrieval where another body doing that for him and allowing him to expend energy elsewhere hopefully will resonate in more offense for his line.

I'd also consider moving 14 down and putting 8 on his wing with 20.

Will just tell you, and I heard this from someone who heard it from Toews himself, NOT having a solid secondary faceoff option puts a big workload burden on him. And the Hawks know this. This is at least partially why Toews himself lobbied for them to go after Duchene this past January.

Also why I believe the Hawks would very much like to have this issue put to bed at some point soon.
- John Jaeckel

If I'm Dauphin, I'm seeing a TREMENDOUS opportunity come training camp.

Toews finished 18th for C in even strength total points (in a season where he missed 10 games and played hurt)

The handful of guys that were better in a significant way (more than just a few points)

McDavid - This kid is gifted and played with a very talented Draisaitl.
Scheifele - Played with Ehlers, Wheeler, Laine all year
Crosby - Played with Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, Guentzel (not all top line talent, but definitely an upgrade compared to Panik, Schmatlz, Hayden, etc..)
Backstrom - played almost exclusively with Oshie and Ovie
Getzlaf - Played with Perry and Rakell mostly.

Crosby is always gonna have the offensive numbers over Toews, but all of the other C who were a clear step ahead of Toews at even strength had some real legit NHL wingers.

The PP for Toews changed a lot with AA on the scene and the clear strategy to have #72 load up a one timer.

Don't be fooled because of the weakness of the forward depth on the team. Here is another consideration...how important is the first goal of the game? Kane/Toews among the league leaders in that regard 2nd and 4th respectively with most opening goals. These guys are the leaders of this team and the key to the success up front. The tales of Toews decline are so overblown, it is ridiculous.
- breadbag

>Rainman and others have mentioned it -- #88 has gotten better every year
>Toews does not pass the eye test -- this moment -- for $10.5 million/year
>I mentioned this soon after the season ended -- Toews should be studying the offensive strengths of all top centers and incorporating what he can into his game
>I just mentioned something he can take from Crosby's game
>McDavid: his skating features the "linear crossover" -- that is -- using crossovers for straight ahead speed (not lateral movement) -- Is Toews adding this to his game?
>Bergeron: plays the high-slot distributor, tipper, screener, quick-shooter on the Bs Power Play -- When will Toews do this?
>Getzlaf: -- often beats players in the open ice 1 on 1 executing a high-speed (for him) toe-drag move -- Jonny?
>I could go on an on
>The point is a player does not improve unless he makes a concerted effort to improve
>Posters who come on here and take issue with Jonny's game do so because based on what we have seen, know he can be better

wasn't panik on his line last year?

Here's devils advocate for you......Replace Saad with Hossa, and keep 19/14 the same.....does 19s production go up that much more because of 20 coming in for 81 as 14 is still a constant variable alongside 19.....
- SteveRain

Yes, Panik was on his line for some of last year, but they still cycled in bottom 6 guys to play on the left and right last year as well (Panik played with Ras-Kruger for a time, remember?). When Toews was finally given two players with top 6 potential/capabilities in Schmaltz-Panik, Toews was pretty much PPG. Makes a difference, no?

Also, there is no legit LW in your proposed scenario - Panik may have chemistry with Toews, but his production has a .5PPG swing on the right vs the left.

Yes, exactly. And I'm surprised people keep dismissing the notion of chemistry between players/lines like it's not a thing. It totally is.

Like, there is this belief that Crosby and Kane can both play with anyone, but that's not exactly true - there should be an "almost" added to that sentence because there are clear incidences of them not clicking with certain guys. Crosby can't seem to work with Kessel, for example. They just don't mesh for some reason. Who knows why. Kane didn't work with Handzus, at least in term of points. That one is more obvious. Kane also doesn't seem to work with Panik, though that's likely due to Panik not being as good on the left. Either way, there are definitely players that even the most adaptable players like Crosby and Kane with whom they don't click.

So imo it doesn't make Toews a lesser player because he didn't click with an assortment of bottom 6 LW. The fact that he was able to still produce at a top 6 level was good. They finally put him with guys he did work with, he produced more. So now that we've acquired Saad, a player that has shown great chemistry with Toews, it's likely that Toews will produce even more (as well as help in other areas). I think .9+ PPG is unrealistic, and expectation should be around .85/6 PPG, but anything can happen when given the proper linemates. I'm highly optimistic for that pairing.
- L_B_R

It is.

What do you mean about "Young Johnny" not having special wingers - he had one or two of Kane, Sharp, and Hossa on his wing almost exclusively for his entire career prior to his last two seasons. He had some time with a younger/better Brouwer in there too and then came Saad. When has he ever had bottom 6 players playing on his wing except over the last two seasons? Not many 1Cs play with bottom 6 wingers over a long period and succeed. Crosby is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's done it recently. Shaw plugged for a minute, but the rotating cast of Garbutt, TT, and Tikhonov isn't likely to cut it long term for a lot of guys.
- L_B_R

>What I mean is that Toews made dynamic plays all by himself early in his career regardless of linemates
>And some happened with 4th liners during line changes
>Most remember Toews' end-to-end rush where he went through the whole Avalanche team to score -- who the other Hawks were did not matter on that play
>Open-ice, fast, dynamic puck-carrying
>Where is that guy?