I have been thinking something similar lately. IMHO, a major factor in Keith being a Norris-caliber defenseman is the fact that he is a freak in the gym. So would prospects like Mitchell or Krys with potential to play a similar style as Keith be solid top-3 blueliners if they amp up the physical strength, endurance, conditioning, mobility, etc. that one can only get by putting in more than the requisite time in the gym? Without this extreme dedication to physical fitness, are Mitchell and Krys undersized yet serviceable bottom-3 puck movers?
- AEL_Fox

A freak in the gym . . . and unusually gifted genetically.

Guys like him don't just fall off trees.

And typically, though not always, they don't last past #10 in the first round (although he did, but his was a pretty unusual case—he was not really slotted at that point as a forward or d-man, had not matured physically, etc).

There may be a sleeper/hidden gem type guy who will emerge as an elite player within the Hawks' system at this point. Although, odds are, more likely not.

A trap a lot of fans fall into is looking at the current talent pipeline for "replacements" to Keith, or Toews, or Hossa or Kane.

Those are Hall of Fame players, the kind around which you build Stanley Cups or 3-Cup Dynasties. So do the math and you see how RARE those guys are, and how hard it is to unearth them when you're picking late year after year.

Point being, guys like Mitchell or even DeBrincat or Krys or whoever are probably not going to be elite players in the NHL, probably not even close to it.

Question is, will the Hawks be honest with themselves and especially the fans at some point and make the hard choice to totally tear down and rebuild or go the Detroit "slow slide" to mediocrity route.

A freak in the gym . . . and unusually gifted genetically.

Guys like him don't just fall off trees.

And typically, though not always, they don't last past #10 in the first round (although he did, but his was a pretty unusual case—he was not really slotted at that point as a forward or d-man, had not matured physically, etc).

There may be a sleeper/hidden gem type guy who will emerge as an elite player within the Hawks' system at this point. Although, odds are, more likely not.

A trap a lot of fans fall into is looking at the current talent pipeline for "replacements" to Keith, or Toews, or Hossa or Kane.

Those are Hall of Fame players, the kind around which you build Stanley Cups or 3-Cup Dynasties. So do the math and you see how RARE those guys are, and how hard it is to unearth them when you're picking late year after year.

Point being, guys like Mitchell or even DeBrincat or Krys or whoever are probably not going to be elite players in the NHL, probably not even close to it.

Question is, will the Hawks be honest with themselves and especially the fans at some point and make the hard choice to totally tear down and rebuild or go the Detroit "slow slide" to mediocrity route.
- John Jaeckel

Calling it right now and you can keep this for the future, there is no way in h e double hockey sticks that Keith gets traded. He will retire a hawk and his number will hang from the rafters one day. book it.

Calling it right now and you can keep this for the future, there is no way in h e double hockey sticks that Keith gets traded. He will retire a hawk and his number will hang from the rafters one day. book it.
- SaskHawkFan

Dual retirement with the infamous Dave Logan.

Calling it right now and you can keep this for the future, there is no way in h e double hockey sticks that Keith gets traded. He will retire a hawk and his number will hang from the rafters one day. book it.
- SaskHawkFan

Odds are he won't get traded. Is there a scenario where he might be? Absolutely.

He is actually more likely than Toews to get dealt (much more) because his contract is so team friendly (to the Hawks or any other team). And it's hard to not imagine him as a value to any team at his cap hit.

So why trade him?

One answer: if you see the Cup window closing or closed, and you want some bigger pieces to rebuild with.

Zaripov would be a nice plug and play. Add to that Kane does not need any real verbal communication as evidenced by his time with Panerin. With Anisimov in the middle, it makes a lot of sense.
- Omahawk

I heard the press conference held fro Panarin yesterday, and he still seems to have little grasp or intention of answering except through a translator.
He said all the English he knows are the vulgarities Kane & Toews taught him.
That he didn't mind the Breadman nickname and although his grandfather (who is responsible for his playing the game) would never call him Breadman, that bread symbolized hospitality and welcome, and the happy everything.

It was funny because the translator (I assume) may have chosen translations that sounded funny, like after being asked had he met with Jackets coach Torts, the answer was talked to him only on the phone so they hadn't agreed to anything yet.


Ask how you will be a leader, a softball question, and Artemi sorta blew it, by not answer through my play. it was asked twice.

He was asked about Bob having #72 and Artemi said he brought boxing gloves along. (he is gonna wear Bobby Hull's third number, 9

he said he blocked two shots last year and one was on Kane....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTksRDJj5Ow

A freak in the gym . . . and unusually gifted genetically.

Guys like him don't just fall off trees.

And typically, though not always, they don't last past #10 in the first round (although he did, but his was a pretty unusual case—he was not really slotted at that point as a forward or d-man, had not matured physically, etc).

There may be a sleeper/hidden gem type guy who will emerge as an elite player within the Hawks' system at this point. Although, odds are, more likely not.

A trap a lot of fans fall into is looking at the current talent pipeline for "replacements" to Keith, or Toews, or Hossa or Kane.

Those are Hall of Fame players, the kind around which you build Stanley Cups or 3-Cup Dynasties. So do the math and you see how RARE those guys are, and how hard it is to unearth them when you're picking late year after year.

Point being, guys like Mitchell or even DeBrincat or Krys or whoever are probably not going to be elite players in the NHL, probably not even close to it.

Question is, will the Hawks be honest with themselves and especially the fans at some point and make the hard choice to totally tear down and rebuild or go the Detroit "slow slide" to mediocrity route.
- John Jaeckel

Let's look at it from a financial standpoint (McRock's viewpoint):

Becoming the Milwaukee Bucks gives you a payroll near the cap ($75MM currently), with probably one tournament round of 2 or 3 home games - so a high payroll and about $4-6MM in play-off revenues - and probably some sponsorship and TV (if not attendance) revenues and some during the season - and certainly some cachet - by becoming a mediocre on-ice product.

Going full rebuild - moving all / most of the high-salary contracts - saves you $10-$20MM on payroll cash (the floor is $55MM, I think). You would lose some revenues (and cachet) during the rebuild, but I would guess they could / would remain profitable (forget Wirtz' phony "losing money" claims). And they would market it as setting up for the future.

So - financially - they would be better off doing a complete rebuild, setting up for another 10 year tournament run after, say, 3 years of rebuild.

But - that time isn't this year - or probably next year - moves can still be made to be a Cup competitive team.

Odds are he won't get traded. Is there a scenario where he might be? Absolutely.

He is actually more likely than Toews to get dealt (much more) because his contract is so team friendly (to the Hawks or any other team). And it's hard to not imagine him as a value to any team at his cap hit.

So why trade him?

One answer: if you see the Cup window closing or closed, and you want some bigger pieces to rebuild with.
- John Jaeckel

Another freakish athlete - Andreas Athanasiou.

If the front office plan is to improve team speed then you have to make a run at his rights. Sign him the day you gain Hossa's space. He may be a project but no better spot to develop a project at LW than next to Kane.... and people comparing him to Stalberg are crazy. 18 goals last year while essentially being dog housed by Blashill.

Athanasiou and Saad give this forward group a huge boost in speed.

Athanasiou may even take less on a bridge deal knowing he will get a shot on Kane's line....

I heard the press conference held fro Panarin yesterday, and he still seems to have little grasp or intention of answering except through a translator.
He said all the English he knows are the vulgarities Kane & Toews taught him.
That he didn't mind the Breadman nickname and although his grandfather (who is responsible for his playing the game) would never call him Breadman, that bread symbolized hospitality and welcome, and the happy everything.

It was funny because the translator (I assume) may have chosen translations that sounded funny, like after being asked had he met with Jackets coach Torts, the answer was talked to him only on the phone so they hadn't agreed to anything yet.


Ask how you will be a leader, a softball question, and Artemi sorta blew it, by not answer through my play. it was asked twice.

He was asked about Bob having #72 and Artemi said he brought boxing gloves along. (he is gonna wear Bobby Hull's third number, 9

he said he blocked two shots last year and one was on Kane....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTksRDJj5Ow
- wiz1901

Another reason to make me more comfortable with the trade. A player serious about excelling here would dedicate himself to learning the language. Tarasenko did it. Malkin, Ovechkin..... Surprising to me the Hawks front office didn't require some work on it in year one. Having an employee who can't communicate directly with a supervisor? Too bad they couldn't tie it to his bonus.

Another freakish athlete - Andreas Athanasiou.

If the front office plan is to improve team speed then you have to make a run at his rights. Sign him the day you gain Hossa's space. He may be a project but no better spot to develop a project at LW than next to Kane.... and people comparing him to Stalberg are crazy. 18 goals last year while essentially being dog housed by Blashill.

Athanasiou and Saad give this forward group a huge boost in speed.

Athanasiou may even take less on a bridge deal knowing he will get a shot on Kane's line....
- tredbrta

I am totally against signing one season wonders to fat deals and that is why the Wings hesitate.

Another reason to make me more comfortable with the trade. A player serious about excelling here would dedicate himself to learning the language. Tarasenko did it. Malkin, Ovechkin..... Surprising to me the Hawks front office didn't require some work on it in year one. Having an employee who can't communicate directly with a supervisor? Too bad they couldn't tie it to his bonus.
- tredbrta

I think the language was a factor. After his first season, didn't Panarin say he didn't know what the coach wanted most the time and that AA didn't always help him understand. I think it was something like "I just go out and play my game". I'd wonder how much that continued and how much the coaching staff were frustrated with a player they couldn't fully communicate with. Especially when he was out there for shifts without AA to help.

Another freakish athlete - Andreas Athanasiou.

If the front office plan is to improve team speed then you have to make a run at his rights. Sign him the day you gain Hossa's space. He may be a project but no better spot to develop a project at LW than next to Kane.... and people comparing him to Stalberg are crazy. 18 goals last year while essentially being dog housed by Blashill.

Athanasiou and Saad give this forward group a huge boost in speed.

Athanasiou may even take less on a bridge deal knowing he will get a shot on Kane's line....
- tredbrta

He will be gone by the time the Hawks have Hossa's cap space.

If you are one of the theorists who thinks a Vegas defender is coming to the hawks, maybe you could use the sweater numbers Vegas gave out to see who has a number not being used in Chicago:

(I must have nothing to do!)

Defensemen

3 Brayden McNabb

4 Clayton Stoner

5 Deryk Engelland

6 Colin Miller

7 Jason Garrison

8 Griffin Reinhart

15 Jon Merrill

27 Shea Theodore <--- He is NOT getting traded.

45 Jake Bischoff

47 Luca Sbisa

76 Chris Casto

77 Brad Hunt

88 Nate Schmidt

Assuming the Hawks are able to sign Zaripov and he puts up 20-25 goals, then it doesn't matter if he's on the other side of 30 years old because he would only be need for 1-2 years and not be a long-term fixture. Three upsides to this scenario:

1) The Hawks have a serviceable if not solid 2LW to play with Kane and Anisimov.
2) Sharp can slot down to 3LW to play with Schmaltz and Hartman to allow the team to roll 3 lines with varying levels of offensive punch.
3) And this would all buy time so as to not rush future potential top-6 LWs like Fortin and DeBrincat and let them develop at a comfortable pace until they are truly ready to graduate to the NHL.
- AEL_Fox

Agree 100%. Then you can have Bouma/Kero/Wingels as fourth line. Nice too.

If you are one of the theorists who thinks a Vegas defender is coming to the hawks, maybe you could use the sweater numbers Vegas gave out to see who has a number not being used in Chicago:

(I must have nothing to do!)

Defensemen

3 Brayden McNabb

4 Clayton Stoner

5 Deryk Engelland

6 Colin Miller

7 Jason Garrison

8 Griffin Reinhart

15 Jon Merrill

27 Shea Theodore <--- He is NOT getting traded.

45 Jake Bischoff

47 Luca Sbisa

76 Chris Casto

77 Brad Hunt

88 Nate Schmidt
- wiz1901

The Hawks had interest in Garrison in the past.

Odds are he won't get traded. Is there a scenario where he might be? Absolutely.

He is actually more likely than Toews to get dealt (much more) because his contract is so team friendly (to the Hawks or any other team). And it's hard to not imagine him as a value to any team at his cap hit.

So why trade him?

One answer: if you see the Cup window closing or closed, and you want some bigger pieces to rebuild with.
- John Jaeckel

What if Toews is sub 60 points this year even with Saad on his wing and the Hawks are willing to retain say 3mil of his salary? Is Keith still more likely to be traded? I would hope the hell not!!! I fully believe Kane, Keith, or Seabs could easily captain this team in his stead.

What if Toews is sub 60 points this year even with Saad on his wing and the Hawks are willing to retain say 3mil of his salary? Is Keith still more likely to be traded? I would hope the hell not!!! I fully believe Kane, Keith, or Seabs could easily captain this team in his stead.
- Murph76

You have to consider the big picture.
1) Toews scored 58 points last year BUT he only played in 72 games.
2) He suffered a back injury in the world cup.
3) He played with multiple different linemates.
4) His career high is 76.
5) But he takes a lot of Dzone draws (so Dzone starts)
6) He plays a lot of minutes on the PK
7) He is usually up against the opponents best line and D pairing.
8) He is the team leader and (with Kane) is the face of the franchise.

If he is healthy, plays about 80 games, is regularly paired with Saad and Panik he is likely to score about 70 to 75 points.

But for the sake of the argument let's say you trade him and retain $3mil in salary. If you pay his replacement, your new 1st line center, $7mil. You basically gain nothing against the cap because you have retained $3mil from Toews contract.

You have to consider the big picture.
1) Toews scored 58 points last year BUT he only played in 72 games.
2) He suffered a back injury in the world cup.
3) He played with multiple different linemates.
4) His career high is 76.
5) But he takes a lot of Dzone draws (so Dzone starts)
6) He plays a lot of minutes on the PK
7) He is usually up against the opponents best line and D pairing.
8) He is the team leader and (with Kane) is the face of the franchise.

If he is healthy, plays about 80 games, is regularly paired with Saad and Panik he is likely to score about 70 to 75 points.

But for the sake of the argument let's say you trade him and retain $3mil in salary. If you pay his replacement, your new 1st line center, $7mil. You basically gain nothing against the cap because you have retained $3mil from Toews contract.
- -Doh-

If he scores 70 to 75 points I'm absolutely ok with that. I'm not concerned too much with the cap savings as per capfriendly we seem to be a little bit better off next year, but for example...say he does score sub 60 points and you could pull Jeff Carter from the Kings. With 3mil retained, you would still save like 1.8 mil (10.5 Toews vs, 5.2 Carter).

You have to consider the big picture.
1) Toews scored 58 points last year BUT he only played in 72 games.
2) He suffered a back injury in the world cup.
3) He played with multiple different linemates.
4) His career high is 76.
5) But he takes a lot of Dzone draws (so Dzone starts)
6) He plays a lot of minutes on the PK
7) He is usually up against the opponents best line and D pairing.
8) He is the team leader and (with Kane) is the face of the franchise.

If he is healthy, plays about 80 games, is regularly paired with Saad and Panik he is likely to score about 70 to 75 points.

But for the sake of the argument let's say you trade him and retain $3mil in salary. If you pay his replacement, your new 1st line center, $7mil. You basically gain nothing against the cap because you have retained $3mil from Toews contract.
- -Doh-

I've love to see some metric (and maybe is does exist out there) on the quality of linemates for a given player. I have a hard time seeing many C that scored more than Toews who have equal or worse linemates (in general). Maybe Crosby is comparable with Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, Guentzel. Seems like most other 1C are getting the benefit of a legitimate top winger (or two).

I've love to see some metric (and maybe is does exist out there) on the quality of linemates for a given player. I have a hard time seeing many C that scored more than Toews who have equal or worse linemates (in general). Maybe Crosby is comparable with Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, Guentzel. Seems like most other 1C are getting the benefit of a legitimate top winger (or two).
- breadbag

I'd also like to see the same metric for quality of linemates for Toews entire career prior to his $10.5mil extension. Hossa, Sharp and Saad were all ELITE level wingers when Toews was productive. Whent Hossa/Sharp declined and Saad was traded....look at the results. Anyone who says that Toews needs Elite level wingers to produce over 60 points has made the argument for why he does not deserve the $10.5mil Cap Hit.

I've love to see some metric (and maybe is does exist out there) on the quality of linemates for a given player. I have a hard time seeing many C that scored more than Toews who have equal or worse linemates (in general). Maybe Crosby is comparable with Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, Guentzel. Seems like most other 1C are getting the benefit of a legitimate top winger (or two).
- breadbag

Quality of teammate is the stat you want. Crosby really only played with Sheary and Hornqvist in the regular season, both of which are considering high quality, especially the latter. Hornqvist does especially well in xGF and GAR models, though I'm super skeptical of the GAR in general. Guentzel and Schmaltz don't have large enough samples and Panik is considered a mid-tier dependent, though he's edging towards shooter. Crosby had better linemates this year vs last.

Studies have shown that QOT is one of the biggest variables to impact results of players. Not all - Kane has consistently produced with low QOT over the years, though he did much better with high QOT. Even more so than quality of competition. It's also been shown though that some lower QOT players can work with higher quality guys because the line balance / roles of the linemates works. Bickell moving up at time and Shaw being able to work with Kane-Saad despite both being lower 6 players, for example, or Rust working well-enough with Crosby.

Quality of teammate is the stat you want. Crosby really only played with Sheary and Hornqvist in the regular season, both of which are considering high quality, especially the latter. Hornqvist does especially well in xGF and GAR models, though I'm super skeptical of the GAR in general. Guentzel and Schmaltz don't have large enough samples and Panik is considered a mid-tier dependent, though he's edging towards shooter. Crosby had better linemates this year vs last.

Studies have shown that QOT is one of the biggest variables to impact results of players. Not all - Kane has consistently produced with low QOT over the years, though he did much better with high QOT. Even more so than quality of competition. It's also been shown though that some lower QOT players can work with higher quality guys because the line balance / roles of the linemates works. Bickell moving up at time and Shaw being able to work with Kane-Saad despite both being lower 6 players, for example, or Rust working well-enough with Crosby.
- L_B_R

Of all of the players you mention above, Phil Kessel has to rank higher in QOT.

Yet interestingly Crosby and him don't cut it at all playing together.

There have been many great NHL forward lines over the years where one player didn't seem to fit or be good enough to play with the other 2. Yet it worked.

He will be gone by the time the Hawks have Hossa's cap space.
- -Doh-

Trade for his rights and sign him post Hossa LTIR.

Not sure what his agent is asking but Holland needs every penny after the garbage signings of the last few seasons. If Stan could grab Athaniesu for a midround pick and/or a prospect like Pokka and sign him for less than half the Hossa cap hit on a 2 year bridge deal..... worth the risk.

Trade for his rights and sign him post Hossa LTIR.

Not sure what his agent is asking but Holland needs every penny after the garbage signings of the last few seasons. If Stan could grab Athaniesu for a midround pick and/or a prospect like Pokka and sign him for less than half the Hossa cap hit on a 2 year bridge deal..... worth the risk.
- tredbrta

Might not be a bad idea depending on what he's looking for.

Trade for his rights and sign him post Hossa LTIR.

Not sure what his agent is asking but Holland needs every penny after the garbage signings of the last few seasons. If Stan could grab Athaniesu for a midround pick and/or a prospect like Pokka and sign him for less than half the Hossa cap hit on a 2 year bridge deal..... worth the risk.
- tredbrta

I've heard his hockey IQ is a weakness. Can't say for sure if that's true, but if so that's an issue. If SB could grab the guy with Pokka and a mid pick then why not, but I think some other team will bite on him for his speed alone and take a shot.

http://icehogs.com/news/icehogs/?article_id=5729

Surely nothing but a minor league depth signing, but Ice Hogs sign undersized blueliner Brandon Anselmini. He played a few games for the Stars AHL team last year but has mainly been in the ECHL the past two seasons. Played college at Ferris State. I guess Rockford needs to replenish its supply of Brandons with Saad, Mashinter, Pirri, and Bollig graduated or gone.