the numbers might reinforce what I saw, but I won't let the numbers tell me what happened on the ice...

Franson had great numbers...yet he's still unsigned as of this point...which is typical...he knows analytics count and he uses them to make him more marketable, or so he thinks...yet, whipping boy Kulikov, who's numbers stunk, signed a three-year deal...

*shrugs*

go figure
- Michael Pachla

and they might not, thats when the numbers are useful. Might help you better understand. Its not a replacement, its a supplement.

Kulikov was hampered by a debilitating back injury that affected him nearly the entire season...he also played under a coach who had no idea what he was doing with the talent he had and to top it all off, he really didn't want to be in buffalo...

Franson had everything going for him...and he still sucked...that's why he's still unsigned
- Michael Pachla

kulikov wasn't all that great before it either.

and they might not, thats when the numbers are useful. Might help you better understand. Its not a replacement, its a supplement.
- Sabresfan-365

this I can live with...too many think analytics are the end-all, be-all...they believe they found the rosetta stone and use them to try and make us believe they know more than they really do...

I better stop...


common ground...peace

Maggie Cory. Do we need a backup goalie?

Kulikov was hampered by a debilitating back injury that affected him nearly the entire season...he also played under a coach who had no idea what he was doing with the talent he had and to top it all off, he really didn't want to be in buffalo...

Franson had everything going for him...and he still sucked...that's why he's still unsigned
- Michael Pachla

He has offers from 4 teams

One of them the infallible Blackhawks.

He's a 4/5 D man.

this I can live with...too many think analytics are the end-all, be-all...they believe they found the rosetta stone and use them to try and make us believe they know more than they really do...

I better stop...


common ground...peace
- Michael Pachla

i dont disagree with this at all so no worries there lol.

A chunk of them like to pretend that what they are doing is really advanced. The reality is it only seems that way because when explaining they love to use 10 words when 4 will do.

you show any of these advanced theories/stats to an actual stats major and they'll piss themselves laughing.

I like Coller, but he's one of the biggest hypocrites in sports journalism.

What he's saying about Risto is the exact opposite he's said about Pysyk, Myers, Bogo and others.

When it's someone like Risto who he's in love with, the numbers all the sudden need context, if it's Bogo or Myers who he dislikes, the numbers are everything.

If it's Pysyk, who gives a poor eye test, but Coller loves him, it's all about the numbers again

that just makes my point. if the right role for every d-men (minus risto) on the team is a sheltered one at less than 20 mins a night, then nothing is going to work.


edit: where do you think the shmanalytics come from? the game happened for those numbers to happen. you check the numbers, AFTER the game
- Sabresfan-365

Yeah, but his(Coller's) comment about baseball analytics is bang on. A lot of people use straw-men saying that stats are great for baseball, so why shouldn't they be for hockey? Do you think the NFL is just sitting on its ass not looking into stats? They have them, sure, but they're not as illuminating as even hockey stats are. Baseball is the perfect analytical sport. Everything is the same. There are just too many variables in hockey, football and even basketball for analytics to have the same impact. Not to say it has none, but an over-reliance leads to the Ristolainen effect. He puts up a ton of points, eats super-duper elite minutes, and doesn't allow shots in his direct area. What more could you possibly ask from a player? Yet some people who will remain nameless genuinely think the Franson is a better player.

I like Coller, but he's one of the biggest hypocrites in sports journalism.

What he's saying about Risto is the exact opposite he's said about Pysyk, Myers, Bogo and others.

When it's someone like Risto who he's in love with, the numbers all the sudden need context, if it's Bogo or Myers who he dislikes, the numbers are everything.

If it's Pysyk, who gives a poor eye test, but Coller loves him, it's all about the numbers again
- sbroads24

did pysyk really give a poor eye test? i mean some people love him like hes the next anton stralman but in general hes a solid d-man .

Yeah, but his(Coller's) comment about baseball analytics is bang on. A lot of people use straw-men saying that stats are great for baseball, so why shouldn't they be for hockey? Do you think the NFL is just sitting on its ass not looking into stats? They have them, sure, but they're not as illuminating as even hockey stats are. Baseball is the perfect analytical sport. Everything is the same. There are just too many variables in hockey, football and even basketball for analytics to have the same impact. Not to say it has none, but an over-reliance leads to the Ristolainen effect. He puts up a ton of points, eats super-duper elite minutes, and doesn't allow shots in his direct area. What more could you possibly ask from a player? Yet some people who will remain nameless genuinely think the Franson is a better player.
- Wetbandit1

if hes not eating them at an elite level...? yea sure he gets 28 mins but if hes not moving the needle as they say whats the point?

I get ristolainen does all that well but modern nhl success requires your defence to be mobile, move the puck quickly/effectively and maintain possession. The truly elite d-men either dominate this area or good to very good at both aspects like hedman.

The defence group last year had too many of one type. They've added some guys who can do the other. Hopefully the impact will see a steady rise in these underlying numbers for someone like risto.

did pysyk really give a poor eye test? i mean some people love him like hes the next anton stralman but in general hes a solid d-man .
- Sabresfan-365

Not to some, like us, but when Coller would defend him on WGR, he was 100% about his numbers. Never gave context like he did with Risto.

I don't even really disagree with the Risto article, it's well written.

Coller is just a straight up hypocrite.

Coller loved Risto, said years ago how he was going to be an elite #1 D man, and now that his numbers are awful, he's "making the case" for him

Just heard the NHL is changing rule on off sides challenges. You challenge and get it wrong, 2 minute delay of game penalty. Precisely what your friendly neighborhood Hatboro_Swords was first to propose approximately 6 months ago. The archive doesn't lie. You're welcome Bill Daly.

Where's the recorder of deeds? Mark down another successful prognostication. I'm not always right, but I aint ever been wrong.

Not to some, like us, but when Coller would defend him on WGR, he was 100% about his numbers. Never gave context like he did with Risto.

I don't even really disagree with the Risto article, it's well written.

Coller is just a straight up hypocrite.

Coller loved Risto, said years ago how he was going to be an elite #1 D man, and now that his numbers are awful, he's "making the case" for him
- sbroads24

he closes his article with:

"After this year, we should come away with a much better idea of Risto’s ceiling and whether he can be a true No. 1 defenseman."

so thats something i guess. He bet big on risto so i guess i can see why hed be okay with the hypocrisy.

He has offers from 4 teams

One of them the infallible Blackhawks.

He's a 4/5 D man.
- sbroads24

You'd think he'd have learned his lesson after his last massive dose of humility. Apparently he hasn't or he would've signed right away if he has offers from 4 teams. He's a 14-15 minute defenseman including 3 minutes of PP time.

he closes his article with:

"After this year, we should come away with a much better idea of Risto’s ceiling and whether he can be a true No. 1 defenseman."

so thats something i guess. He bet big on risto so i guess i can see why hed be okay with the hypocrisy.
- Sabresfan-365

Again, don't disagree with that. It's a decent article.

It's him writing this after what he's said about other players that irks me.

Maggie Cory. Do we need a backup goalie?


- adambuffalo

Aren't you guys a little too old

if hes not eating them at an elite level...? yea sure he gets 28 mins but if hes not moving the needle as they say whats the point?

I get ristolainen does all that well but modern nhl success requires your defence to be mobile, move the puck quickly/effectively and maintain possession. The truly elite d-men either dominate this area or good to very good at both aspects like hedman.

The defence group last year had too many of one type. They've added some guys who can do the other. Hopefully the impact will see a steady rise in these underlying numbers for someone like risto.
- Sabresfan-365

Because he doesn't fatigue like if you asked many other defensemen would.

I have 0 (frank)s to give about underlying numbers, all I care about are wins. Look at the Kings, Corsi darlings, and they miss the playoffs. Carolina too.

Edit: Generally speaking when one is referred to as a "minute munching" defenseman, it means he can handle said minutes.

You'd think he'd have learned his lesson after his last massive dose of humility. Apparently he hasn't or he would've signed right away if he has offers from 4 teams. He's a 14-15 minute defenseman including 3 minutes of PP time.
- Wetbandit1

So, just to be clear. And I know this isn't you saying this, more Pachla.

All of our D men, like Bogo and Risto were so negatively effected by Bylsma.....except Franson. He just sucks.....

he closes his article with:

"After this year, we should come away with a much better idea of Risto’s ceiling and whether he can be a true No. 1 defenseman."

so thats something i guess. He bet big on risto so i guess i can see why hed be okay with the hypocrisy.
- Sabresfan-365

1 year under a new coach and system is a bit much to ask if you're looking for what you're trying to find. If he goes with gradual change it's going to be half a season with a bad system. If it's his new system right from the start it's going to be half a season just learning the system and learning what to do in certain game situations that can't be duplicated. By the end of next year is when we'll really see.

Good teams can withstand coaching changes, because they're already good and understand how to play well. It's not the same with bad and especially young teams.

Again, don't disagree with that. It's a decent article.

It's him writing this after what he's said about other players that irks me.
- sbroads24

I think that's the biggest knock against "Analytics Guys" is that they only use the info if it is beneficial to their original theory or point. These flip flops can debase analytics as a whole, which is unfortunate because there are certain trends that can be seen.

It isn't as though the eye test is somehow more accurate. As with anything in life, "virtue is the mean between two vices". All eye test or all analytics are the radicals. I'm still surprised when people go for the all or nothing viewpoint as MP says.

https://www.nhl.com/sabre...for-october-3/c-290877366

I mean not that I like the idea of Co-Captains, but does this add fuel to that speculative fire?

https://www.nhl.com/sabre...for-october-3/c-290877366

I mean not that I like the idea of Co-Captains, but does this add fuel to that speculative fire?
- feetontheair22

No lol my dad Use to take me to this you have lunch with the players and coaches they put each player at one table


That's how the news broke about jack we found out when they did not introduce him

I think that's the biggest knock against "Analytics Guys" is that they only use the info if it is beneficial to their original theory or point. These flip flops can debase analytics as a whole, which is unfortunate because there are certain trends that can be seen.

It isn't as though the eye test is somehow more accurate. As with anything in life, "virtue is the mean between two vices". All eye test or all analytics are the radicals. I'm still surprised when people go for the all or nothing viewpoint as MP says.
- RhinoFan

I don't think it should be all or nothing. It should be a mixture.

The problem is when one is 100% dismissed.

So, just to be clear. And I know this isn't you saying this, more Pachla.

All of our D men, like Bogo and Risto were so negatively effected by Bylsma.....except Franson. He just sucks.....
- sbroads24

Bogo is such an enigma. You see flashes of a really good player, and then you see him all alone in the corner when the puck is in the back of the net. Bobbling the puck on a clear attempt I would say is mostly bad luck, but it happens so often with him you have to question that. But then he'll make a great pass, or carry the puck out with his head up and a head of steam and make a great pass for a goal/great chance. I really don't know what his deal is. I would guess it's just too many minutes. Much like Weber and Franson where less chance to (frank) up means less (frank)ing up. But to be fair to him he has yet to have a "good" coach, so maybe?

https://www.nhl.com/sabre...for-october-3/c-290877366

I mean not that I like the idea of Co-Captains, but does this add fuel to that speculative fire?
- feetontheair22

Maybe. It could be seen a few different ways. You have your 2, arguably, most visible players. All the players will be there though.

People are making way too much of this captaincy thing. The guys in the room know who the leaders are and as long as there's minimal friction that's all that matters.