So happy to find the debate still going strong on about overplaying a goalie...
UGH!!

The injury didn't happen until January 23rd against Detroit.
- Feanor

Not really. If it's a sports hernia it happens over a period of time. It's going to get progressively worse if not treated. Typically sports hernias don't need surgery unless the go untreated. They best way is to catch them early and give them rest.

They put him on IR on the 25th trying to give him rest, but when they determined rest wasn't going to do it (ie the injury had gone too far to be repaired thru rest), they shut him down.

Likely the first part of the injury occured in mid/late December.

I disagree. By the eye test Manning was definitly better and there is also data to suggest Manning was better at the time.

What is a coaches trust based on? Who he likes better personally or from on ice results and action?
- MJL

This is the same coaching staff who have played Lehtera for 17 games in a row now. Are you going to tell us that the eye test and the data show Lehtera deserves to play every single night?

Likely the first part of the injury occured in mid/late December.
- VladDrag

That's not "likely", it's just a guess on your part.

OMG it's still Wednesday!

Are you serious with this part? How would one go about this?

I really honestly want to know what you mean here. Do you say he is training less hard because he knows he will only be playing a certain amount of games? If not, how exactly would he prep differently than if he expected to play more?
- MBFlyerfan

Not that he's training less hard, but his frequency is simulated to that of a game. It's called prehabilitation, and it's quite common.. What it means is that they put you thru about 110% of what you're expected to sustain in a game situation with the same amount of rest in between.

I am not a professional athlete, but I have been a high level athlete and have experienced these things before. Not tooting my own horn (and have said this before), but I've played rugby league for the USA and have been around sports medicine for a while. You tend to pick that type of stuff up the more you are around it.

Mason got two concussions this year and only played 11 games.

Stupid Jets clearly overused him.
- Feanor

Jesus, really? Did not know that, haven't paid any attention to him or the Jets really this year. But I guess the lack of hearing about him makes sense now.

That's not "likely", it's just a guess on your part.
- Feanor

Yes, its a guess but is' an educated guess -- which is what likely means. I don't understand the hostility.

All anyone can say to refute what I've said is, well that's your opinion. It's not like my opinion is based in bullpoop. It's based on facts, documentation, studies, and personal experience.

Yes, could I be wrong, sure. But until someone gives me a real reason other than ' that's just your opinion' I'm going to believe what I'm coming up with.

This is the same coaching staff who have played Lehtera for 17 games in a row now. Are you going to tell us that the eye test and the data show Lehtera deserves to play every single night?
- Feanor

rhetorical, I am assuming

Yes, its a guess but is' an educated guess -- which is what likely means. I don't understand the hostility.

All anyone can say to refute what I've said is, well that's your opinion. It's not like my opinion is based in bullpoop. It's based on facts, documentation, studies, and personal experience.

Yes, could I be wrong, sure. But until someone gives me a real reason other than ' that's just your opinion' I'm going to believe what I'm coming up with.
- VladDrag

Please play goalie every night until you give yourself a sports hernia and then report your findings

Not that he's training less hard, but his frequency is simulated to that of a game. It's called prehabilitation, and it's quite common.. What it means is that they put you thru about 110% of what you're expected to sustain in a game situation with the same amount of rest in between.

I am not a professional athlete, but I have been a high level athlete and have experienced these things before. Not tooting my own horn (and have said this before), but I've played rugby league for the USA and have been around sports medicine for a while. You tend to pick that type of stuff up the more you are around it.
- VladDrag

Ok fair enough. And for the record I am not discounting that his playing so much may have contributed.

The debate lies in the question of whether or not the team would be where they are in the standings right had he not played all those games. Much of the reasoning is that there was simply no one else available either due to injury or the alternative not being high enough caliber to give the team a chance to win.

Had they not played Elliot so much and the team was on the outside looking in right now, the same people would be screaming about usage in the opposite direction. Saying, why didn't we give Elliott this start or that start?

I get that Elliott may not be used to or cut out to play this much at the stage of his career, but I also get that had he not played, this team would probably be the 9th or 10th seed.

I would rather be where we are now, taking our chances with Neuvirth, then be out of it with 2 healthy goalies playing out the string until Hart shows up.

That is all I am trying to say.

Jesus, really? Did not know that, haven't paid any attention to him or the Jets really this year. But I guess the lack of hearing about him makes sense now.
- arichardson22

It also doesn't help his case that Hellebuyck has been phenominal.

It also doesn't help his case that Hellebuyck has been phenominal.
- Streit2ThePoint

He has single handedly saved the goalie portion of my fantasy team.

It also doesn't help his case that Hellebuyck has been phenominal.
- Streit2ThePoint

Is he already looking like a bad signing

You can't compare Brian Elliot to random goalies from the 90's. It's no where near the same. You have to look at his individual situation. He's never played more than 55 games and that was 7-8 years ago. He's also past his athletic prime. Your body naturally becomes accustom to your work load it's previously experienced. Coming in, I'm sure he wasn't told he was going to be a number one starter playing 60 games this season, which means he prepped for the season with different expectations.

In general however, there seems to be the lack of acknowledgment that overuse might have played a part in this injury. It's a real thing, it really happens and the situation is a prime example for this to have occurred.

Again, not saying that it's the main cause of injury, but there is a high degree of likelihood that overuse caused this injury. I don't understand why people can't admit that, it's crazy.
- VladDrag

Caused? Nope
Contributed? Maybe/possibly/perhaps

Is he already looking like a bad signing
- arichardson22

Well, from the POV that he hasn't played all that much due to the injuries, I would say yes.

And he hasn't been nearly good enough in the games he did play. Including a few really BRUTAL starts at the beginning of the season which basically just cemented Hellebuyck's status.

Ok fair enough. And for the record I am not discounting that his playing so much may have contributed.

The debate lies in the question of whether or not the team would be where they are in the standings right had he not played all those games. Much of the reasoning is that there was simply no one else available either due to injury or the alternative not being high enough caliber to give the team a chance to win.

Had they not played Elliot so much and the team was on the outside looking in right now, the same people would be screaming about usage in the opposite direction. Saying, why didn't we give Elliott this start or that start?

I get that Elliott may not be used to or cut out to play this much at the stage of his career, but I also get that had he not played, this team would probably be the 9th or 10th seed.

I would rather be where we are now, taking our chances with Neuvirth, then be out of it with 2 healthy goalies playing out the string until Hart shows up.

That is all I am trying to say.
- MBFlyerfan

100% agree, and understand. My point never has been 'they should have played Neuvirth more', only that the most likely cause of the injury was overuse.

As I said earlier, Hak didn't have much of a choice. Look at his options. Just lost 10 straight, fighting for playoffs, your backup goes down during a stretch of games where your starter is playing well. The new backup is a kid from the AHL who hasn't played a game yet in the NHL. Any head coach would have done the same thing. Is his usage the primary cause, it very well could be. But would any coach have done the same thing, yes. Not that hard to understand.

Caused? Nope
Contributed? Maybe/possibly/perhaps
- Scoob

If it's a sports hernia, the cause is overuse.

We need Bill to save us with a new blob

Well, from the POV that he hasn't played all that much due to the injuries, I would say yes.

And he hasn't been nearly good enough in the games he did play. Including a few really BRUTAL starts at the beginning of the season which basically just cemented Hellebuyck's status.
- MBFlyerfan

I do recall first few games of season he let in an absurd amount of goals. Got on our bad side and still ended up as a back up yeesh

100% agree, and understand. My point never has been 'they should have played Neuvirth more', only that the most likely cause of the injury was overuse.

As I said earlier, Hak didn't have much of a choice. Look at his options. Just lost 10 straight, fighting for playoffs, your backup goes down during a stretch of games where your starter is playing well. The new backup is a kid from the AHL who hasn't played a game yet in the NHL. Any head coach would have done the same thing. Is his usage the primary cause, it very well could be. But would any coach have done the same thing, yes. Not that hard to understand.
- VladDrag

Right at this point in the season, with the bye week and All Star break coming so close together, my thought was that Elliott had a LOT of time to rest and recuperate over the past month or so. That was what lead me to believe that this injury was just a fluke more than anything. But that is just an opinion.

If it's a sports hernia, the cause is overuse.
- VladDrag

okay
whatever
I don't really care anyway. He's out.

Right at this point in the season, with the bye week and All Star break coming so close together, my thought was that Elliott had a LOT of time to rest and recuperate over the past month or so. That was what lead me to believe that this injury was just a fluke more than anything. But that is just an opinion.
- MBFlyerfan

Apparently it is not possible that he may also have an undisclosed foot, ankle, knee, hip, or back injury that is causing him to have issues with his motions which may contribute to core muscle issues. It can only, and simply, be overuse.

It also doesn't help his case that Hellebuyck has been phenominal.
- Streit2ThePoint

dude will be getting paid!

New blob. Thank God