Answering your Q from the last thread
- Feds91Stammer

Thanks. I was actually thinking of Jurco_28.

Also, not being able to trade Green is obviously a significant missed opportunity, especially if he leaves at the end of the year for nothing. Not sure I'd really want him to re-sign anyway, even though he's our only defender who can find the attacking zone without a map and a compass.

I really like Green as a player, but considering his age and skillset his only significant value to a team in the early rebuilding stages is what you can get from him in a trade. Bringing him back for a year and then trying again at the 2019 deadline isn't the world's worst idea, but at this point I might just rather let him move on so we can promote an extra rookie and tank harder.

Also, not being able to trade Green is obviously a significant missed opportunity, especially if he leaves at the end of the year for nothing. Not sure I'd really want him to re-sign anyway, even though he's our only defender who can find the attacking zone without a map and a compass.

I really like Green as a player, but considering his age and skillset his only significant value to a team in the early rebuilding stages is what you can get from him in a trade. Bringing him back for a year and then trying again at the 2019 deadline isn't the world's worst idea, but at this point I might just rather let him move on so we can promote an extra rookie and tank harder.
- Sven22

Agree with you on Green... I do like his skillset. Total shame we couldn't move him for at least a 3rd round pick. I'm guessing his neck injury was just too risky and that is why he wasn't moved. Teams were asking for his medical reports per Holland.

Been watching Hronek in GR. This kid looks really good. Wondering if by some miracle Holland would give him and Svechnikov a good long look yet this season (assuming the Wings don't make the playoffs). These guys are the wings blue-chip prospects at this point. Hronek has likely surpassed Russo at this point on the depth chart. Svechnikov needs to play more disciplined and quit taking so many penalties (it's gotten him in the doghouse with Nelson before).

Still praying that Holland and Blashill are gone after this season. My fear is that the Illitch family's long running history / loyalty to Holland will trump what's best for the team.

Agree with you on Green... I do like his skillset. Total shame we couldn't move him for at least a 3rd round pick. I'm guessing his neck injury was just too risky and that is why he wasn't moved. Teams were asking for his medical reports per Holland.

Been watching Hronek in GR. This kid looks really good. Wondering if by some miracle Holland would give him and Svechnikov a good long look yet this season (assuming the Wings don't make the playoffs). These guys are the wings blue-chip prospects at this point. Hronek has likely surpassed Russo at this point on the depth chart. Svechnikov needs to play more disciplined and quit taking so many penalties (it's gotten him in the doghouse with Nelson before).

Still praying that Holland and Blashill are gone after this season. My fear is that the Illitch family's long running history / loyalty to Holland will trump what's best for the team.
- Vladdie_Kon1

Hronek is great, but considering how Tatar, Mrazek, Nosek, Kindl, Marchenko, Hudler and Datsyuk all ended their careers in Detroit, I'm beginning to think Holland hates Slavs.

Kidding. I think.

Here is my whole thoughts on KH and Blashill.

I will be defending them a bit at times, but they still made (and still do make) mistakes that set everything back. However, there are things beyond their control too that we overlook.

-Sorry for the long read-

1. Contracts
Part of me thinks KH did a terrible job on a few of them but the other part of me realizes that he made a further investment in drafted players that basically got money and stopped playing.

Abbey, Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Ericsson and Mrazek were all contracts that I don't like now, but most of that is because all of them are not playing to potential like they did to get said contract. Nielsen and Helm were avoidable so those are inexcusable.

In 2013', the Wings knocked out Ana and pushed the Hawks in a game 7, and the same crew (ish) pushed TB into a game 7 in 2015'... I think the thought, for an organization that is used to having impactful turnover is that it was another waive and invested.

Unfortunately, most of these performances either stopped, flattened or got worse after the Development. Now I guess, you can argue they should have seen it coming etc... but it would be hard to let drafted players walk because you think they will fall off or offer them a lower contract, someone likely would have gotten them for something close anyways, then we would have complaining about signing Belesky vs Abbey if you will.

2. Babs vs Blashill
Really hard to replace that guy, not so much anything other than the success he had and Babs is a better coach. Now, I will stop short of defending Blashill because I do not like a lot of what he does, but he had a lot of hype to deal with, and if you subscribe to KH's bad contracts, one could argue he didn't have much to work with. Datsyuk left, that is hard to replace aswell... anyways, I commend Blashill for trying his best, but I think it's time to get a more experienced bench boss. I think Blashill was owed a chance, he had it and did not cease the opportunity like he could have, mostly by his own design of bench / player utilization.

3. Development
I still think the Wings are one of the better development teams in the NHL. They make an awful lot of NHL regulars, the problem is that the league has changed and development has changed so the days of taking a 5th rounder and getting elite or franchise elements from that are over. Due to the success of the Wings past runs and making the playoffs, the lack of top 10 picks until recently has haunted them a bit -- so they were pushing their old way of thinking but quickly turned to hoping, and that is where many of these contract snafus came into play. I still think they need some adjustments in this piece as they have to get used to getting players into the big club early so it should get interesting.

4. Mr. I
I have read on a few occasions and heard through some scouting folks in the QMJHL, that they heard much of Holland's work was for Mr. I as he wanted to keep winning, it was even suggested KH suggested it would be best to start drafting and signing less, but Mr. I was on the let's keep going mindset. I will never know, and it was a rumor..... But could that explain some of this FA money tied up in some players? Possible I suppose.


5. What's Next?
Well, I have no way of knowing what they will do. But here is what I say. I wish KH would have tried to do a "rebuild" through the draft about 4 years ago, but I see why he did what he did... I don't like it, but I get it. He thought he had a group of drafted players that could be the rebuild and invested. It didn't work out.

So I think he realizes that by doing what he his doing now. But it takes time to move out those contracts, and he is trying to undo what he did but also keep the team competitive.

As it stands today, I like where they are going but it has to keep that way. I would like them to use the next 2 drafts to get more talent, fight for roster spots while moving out contracts. If it's KH great, someone else that is fine too. I think I just want the idea more than who is driving the bus.

Final say:
Trade deadline:
Green: hands were tied with that injury (should of sat him
since last week). But his cap space was already a win.

Tatar: Made up for the Green non-trade. (If I was to say that Tatar and Green fetched us that, I would have been happy)

Mrazek:
We can complain about losing him, but since his bday his GAA was 3.01 and SV% was less than .900, and had to be qualified @ 4mil next year.... He was passed on the expansion, and it BOTH of Philly's goalies to go down before They took him. So there was question marks around the league not much in DET.

Offseason:
-move on from Blashill and get a more experienced coach. (Tipett, Hitchcock, I don't care really).. But Blashill is just not a fit after a good solid chance.

-keep Z, Kronwall and Daley (I just like him) to mentor youth.

-KH -- I can't blame him for the logic behind the moves, but fans wanted a new focus for the organization.... looks like he starting to wise up, but has work to do to undo some of his attempts I keep the wining culture alive. I would be willing to keep him for the follow through, but if he was replaced today I wouldn't be overly upset.

-new blogger. Ek, it's time. We are Duffed out.

I nominate Sven or myself :-) if I may be so bold.

Thanks for reading.

Here is my whole thoughts on KH and Blashill.

I will be defending them a bit at times, but they still made (and still do make) mistakes that set everything back. However, there are things beyond their control too that we overlook.

-Sorry for the long read-

1. Contracts
Part of me thinks KH did a terrible job on a few of them but the other part of me realizes that he made a further investment in drafted players that basically got money and stopped playing.

Abbey, Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Ericsson and Mrazek were all contracts that I don't like now, but most of that is because all of them are not playing to potential like they did to get said contract. Nielsen and Helm were avoidable so those are inexcusable.

In 2013', the Wings knocked out Ana and pushed the Hawks in a game 7, and the same crew (ish) pushed TB into a game 7 in 2015'... I think the thought, for an organization that is used to having impactful turnover is that it was another waive and invested.

Unfortunately, most of these performances either stopped, flattened or got worse after the cDevelopmentNow I guess, you can argue they should have seen it coming etc... but it would be hard to let drafted players walk because you think they will fall off or offer them a lower contract, someone likely would have gotten them for something close anyways, then we would have complaining about signing Belesky vs Abbey if you will.

2. Babs vs Blashill
Really hard to replace that guy, not so much anything other than the success he had and Babs is a better coach. Now, I will stop short of defending Blashill because I do not like slot of what he does, but he had slot of hype to deal with, and if you subscribe to KH's bad contracts, one could argue he didn't have much to work with. Datsyuk left, that is hard to replace aswell... anyways, I commend Blashill for trying his best, but I think it's time to get a more experienced bench boss. I think Blashill was owed a chance, he had it and did not cease the opportunity like he could have, mostly by his own design of bench / player utilization.

3. Development
I still think the Wings are one of the better development teams in the NHL. They make an awful lot of NHL regulars, the problem is that the league has changed and development has changed so the days of taking a 5th rounder and getting elite or franchise elements from that are over. Due to the success of the Wings past runs and making the playoffs, the lack of top 10picks until recently has haunted them a bit -- so they were pushing their old way of thinking but quickly turned to hoping, and that is where many of these contract snafus came into play. I still think they need some adjustments in this pieces as they have to get used to getting players into the big club early so it should get interesting.

4. Mr. I
I have read on a few occasions and heard through some scouting folks in the QMJHL, that they heard much of Holland's work was for Mr. I as he wanted to keep winning, it was even suggested KH suggested it would be best to start drafting and signing less, but Mr. I was on the let's keep going mindset. I will never know, and it was a rumor..... But could that explain some of this FA money tied up in some players? Possible I suppose.


5. What's Next?
Well, I have no way of knowing what they will do. But here is what I say. I wish KH would have tried to do a "rebuild" through the draft about 4 years ago, but I see why he did what he did... I don't like it, but I get it. He thought he had a group of drafted players that could be the rebuild and invested. It didn't work out.

So I think he realizes that by doing what he his doing now. But it takes time to move out those contracts, and he is trying to undo what he did but also keep the team competitive.

As it stands today, I like where they are going but it has to keep that way. I would like them to use the next 2 drafts to get more talent, fight for roster spots while moving out contracts. If it's KH great, someone else that is fine too. I think I just want the idea more than who is driving the bus.

Final say:
Tradedealine:
Green: hands were tied with that injury (should of sat him
since last week). But his cap space was already a win.

Tatar: Made up for the Green non-trade. (If I was to say that Tatar and Green fetched us that, I would have been happy)

Mrazek:
We can complain about losing him, but since his bday his GAA was 3.01 and SV% was less than .900, and had to be qualified @ 4mil next year.... He was passed on the expansion, and it BOTH of Philly's goalies to go down before They took him. So there was question marks around the league not much in DET.

Offseason:
-move on from Blashill and get a more experienced coach. (Tipett, Hitchcock, I don't care really).. But Blashill is just not a fitaftera good solid chance.

-keep Z, Kronwall and Daley (I just like him) to mentor youth.

-KH -- I can't blame him for the logic behind the moves, but fans wanted a new focus for the organization.... looks like he starting to wise up, but has work to do to undo some of his attempts I keep the wining culture alive. I would be willing to keep him for the follow through, but if he was replaced today I wouldn't be overly upset.

-new blogger. Ek, it's time. We are Cuffed out.

I nominate Sven or myself :-) if I may be so bold.

Thanks for reading.
- BooBoo997

I concur with all of this.

Here is my whole thoughts on KH and Blashill.

I will be defending them a bit at times, but they still made (and still do make) mistakes that set everything back. However, there are things beyond their control too that we overlook.

-Sorry for the long read-

1. Contracts
Part of me thinks KH did a terrible job on a few of them but the other part of me realizes that he made a further investment in drafted players that basically got money and stopped playing.

Abbey, Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Ericsson and Mrazek were all contracts that I don't like now, but most of that is because all of them are not playing to potential like they did to get said contract. Nielsen and Helm were avoidable so those are inexcusable.

In 2013', the Wings knocked out Ana and pushed the Hawks in a game 7, and the same crew (ish) pushed TB into a game 7 in 2015'... I think the thought, for an organization that is used to having impactful turnover is that it was another waive and invested.

Unfortunately, most of these performances either stopped, flattened or got worse after the cDevelopmentNow I guess, you can argue they should have seen it coming etc... but it would be hard to let drafted players walk because you think they will fall off or offer them a lower contract, someone likely would have gotten them for something close anyways, then we would have complaining about signing Belesky vs Abbey if you will.

2. Babs vs Blashill
Really hard to replace that guy, not so much anything other than the success he had and Babs is a better coach. Now, I will stop short of defending Blashill because I do not like slot of what he does, but he had slot of hype to deal with, and if you subscribe to KH's bad contracts, one could argue he didn't have much to work with. Datsyuk left, that is hard to replace aswell... anyways, I commend Blashill for trying his best, but I think it's time to get a more experienced bench boss. I think Blashill was owed a chance, he had it and did not cease the opportunity like he could have, mostly by his own design of bench / player utilization.

3. Development
I still think the Wings are one of the better development teams in the NHL. They make an awful lot of NHL regulars, the problem is that the league has changed and development has changed so the days of taking a 5th rounder and getting elite or franchise elements from that are over. Due to the success of the Wings past runs and making the playoffs, the lack of top 10picks until recently has haunted them a bit -- so they were pushing their old way of thinking but quickly turned to hoping, and that is where many of these contract snafus came into play. I still think they need some adjustments in this pieces as they have to get used to getting players into the big club early so it should get interesting.

4. Mr. I
I have read on a few occasions and heard through some scouting folks in the QMJHL, that they heard much of Holland's work was for Mr. I as he wanted to keep winning, it was even suggested KH suggested it would be best to start drafting and signing less, but Mr. I was on the let's keep going mindset. I will never know, and it was a rumor..... But could that explain some of this FA money tied up in some players? Possible I suppose.


5. What's Next?
Well, I have no way of knowing what they will do. But here is what I say. I wish KH would have tried to do a "rebuild" through the draft about 4 years ago, but I see why he did what he did... I don't like it, but I get it. He thought he had a group of drafted players that could be the rebuild and invested. It didn't work out.

So I think he realizes that by doing what he his doing now. But it takes time to move out those contracts, and he is trying to undo what he did but also keep the team competitive.

As it stands today, I like where they are going but it has to keep that way. I would like them to use the next 2 drafts to get more talent, fight for roster spots while moving out contracts. If it's KH great, someone else that is fine too. I think I just want the idea more than who is driving the bus.

Final say:
Tradedealine:
Green: hands were tied with that injury (should of sat him
since last week). But his cap space was already a win.

Tatar: Made up for the Green non-trade. (If I was to say that Tatar and Green fetched us that, I would have been happy)

Mrazek:
We can complain about losing him, but since his bday his GAA was 3.01 and SV% was less than .900, and had to be qualified @ 4mil next year.... He was passed on the expansion, and it BOTH of Philly's goalies to go down before They took him. So there was question marks around the league not much in DET.

Offseason:
-move on from Blashill and get a more experienced coach. (Tipett, Hitchcock, I don't care really).. But Blashill is just not a fitaftera good solid chance.

-keep Z, Kronwall and Daley (I just like him) to mentor youth.

-KH -- I can't blame him for the logic behind the moves, but fans wanted a new focus for the organization.... looks like he starting to wise up, but has work to do to undo some of his attempts I keep the wining culture alive. I would be willing to keep him for the follow through, but if he was replaced today I wouldn't be overly upset.

-new blogger. Ek, it's time. We are Duffed out.

I nominate Sven or myself :-) if I may be so bold.

Thanks for reading.
- BooBoo997

im no wings fan, but i think you nailed it pretty good.
living in "south detroit" i get plenty of wings news on the daily. and i hear alot of wings fans that agree. starts at the top. holland and blashill.

dont get me started on duff

Here is my whole thoughts on KH and Blashill.

I will be defending them a bit at times, but they still made (and still do make) mistakes that set everything back. However, there are things beyond their control too that we overlook.

-Sorry for the long read-

1. Contracts
Part of me thinks KH did a terrible job on a few of them but the other part of me realizes that he made a further investment in drafted players that basically got money and stopped playing.

Abbey, Tatar, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Ericsson and Mrazek were all contracts that I don't like now, but most of that is because all of them are not playing to potential like they did to get said contract. Nielsen and Helm were avoidable so those are inexcusable.

In 2013', the Wings knocked out Ana and pushed the Hawks in a game 7, and the same crew (ish) pushed TB into a game 7 in 2015'... I think the thought, for an organization that is used to having impactful turnover is that it was another waive and invested.

Unfortunately, most of these performances either stopped, flattened or got worse after the Development. Now I guess, you can argue they should have seen it coming etc... but it would be hard to let drafted players walk because you think they will fall off or offer them a lower contract, someone likely would have gotten them for something close anyways, then we would have complaining about signing Belesky vs Abbey if you will.

2. Babs vs Blashill
Really hard to replace that guy, not so much anything other than the success he had and Babs is a better coach. Now, I will stop short of defending Blashill because I do not like a lot of what he does, but he had a lot of hype to deal with, and if you subscribe to KH's bad contracts, one could argue he didn't have much to work with. Datsyuk left, that is hard to replace aswell... anyways, I commend Blashill for trying his best, but I think it's time to get a more experienced bench boss. I think Blashill was owed a chance, he had it and did not cease the opportunity like he could have, mostly by his own design of bench / player utilization.

3. Development
I still think the Wings are one of the better development teams in the NHL. They make an awful lot of NHL regulars, the problem is that the league has changed and development has changed so the days of taking a 5th rounder and getting elite or franchise elements from that are over. Due to the success of the Wings past runs and making the playoffs, the lack of top 10 picks until recently has haunted them a bit -- so they were pushing their old way of thinking but quickly turned to hoping, and that is where many of these contract snafus came into play. I still think they need some adjustments in this piece as they have to get used to getting players into the big club early so it should get interesting.

4. Mr. I
I have read on a few occasions and heard through some scouting folks in the QMJHL, that they heard much of Holland's work was for Mr. I as he wanted to keep winning, it was even suggested KH suggested it would be best to start drafting and signing less, but Mr. I was on the let's keep going mindset. I will never know, and it was a rumor..... But could that explain some of this FA money tied up in some players? Possible I suppose.


5. What's Next?
Well, I have no way of knowing what they will do. But here is what I say. I wish KH would have tried to do a "rebuild" through the draft about 4 years ago, but I see why he did what he did... I don't like it, but I get it. He thought he had a group of drafted players that could be the rebuild and invested. It didn't work out.

So I think he realizes that by doing what he his doing now. But it takes time to move out those contracts, and he is trying to undo what he did but also keep the team competitive.

As it stands today, I like where they are going but it has to keep that way. I would like them to use the next 2 drafts to get more talent, fight for roster spots while moving out contracts. If it's KH great, someone else that is fine too. I think I just want the idea more than who is driving the bus.

Final say:
Trade deadline:
Green: hands were tied with that injury (should of sat him
since last week). But his cap space was already a win.

Tatar: Made up for the Green non-trade. (If I was to say that Tatar and Green fetched us that, I would have been happy)

Mrazek:
We can complain about losing him, but since his bday his GAA was 3.01 and SV% was less than .900, and had to be qualified @ 4mil next year.... He was passed on the expansion, and it BOTH of Philly's goalies to go down before They took him. So there was question marks around the league not much in DET.

Offseason:
-move on from Blashill and get a more experienced coach. (Tipett, Hitchcock, I don't care really).. But Blashill is just not a fit after a good solid chance.

-keep Z, Kronwall and Daley (I just like him) to mentor youth.

-KH -- I can't blame him for the logic behind the moves, but fans wanted a new focus for the organization.... looks like he starting to wise up, but has work to do to undo some of his attempts I keep the wining culture alive. I would be willing to keep him for the follow through, but if he was replaced today I wouldn't be overly upset.

-new blogger. Ek, it's time. We are Duffed out.

I nominate Sven or myself :-) if I may be so bold.

Thanks for reading.
- BooBoo997

I agree with a lot of what you say here, though I'll add my own take on the contract situation.

Of the big, long contracts I think Zetterberg, Kronwall, Tatar, and Nyquist were all very defensible when they were signed. Z's deal was awesome and has turned out about as well as it possibly could have. Tats and Nike haven't quite had the results that were expected of them, but are still solid players. Kronwall's was the most iffy at the time (a 7-year deal for a 31-year-old defenseman is probably not going to look great at the end) and he's declined harder and faster than hoped, but the Wings were still getting a pretty good deal on him during the years when they were still fairly competitive.

Neilsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Ericsson, and Howard were IMO obvious overpayments even from the very beginning, and every single one of those deals looks as bad or worse today as they did back then. Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Ericsson and Howard all got huge raises and long-term deals despite all being around 30 years old (i.e., at the tail end of their expected prime years) when the new deals kicked in.

It's not that these guys were or are bad players, but it's like Holland completely forgot that, oh yeah, players tend to keep getting worse at hockey throughout their 30s, especially when they weren't all-stars to begin with. He was paying them like he expected them to actually improve slightly over ages 30-35, which is insane. Their failure to live up to their deals was utterly predictable.

I get why there was still a strong organizational desire to remain as competitive as possible for as long as possible even a few years ago when they were still squeaking into the postseason by the skin of their teeth. And I get that in some cases Holland may have had to overpay to keep his own guys. But to sign those deals without realizing almost all of them would blow up in their faces almost immediately is willful ignorance.

If you have to massively overpay mediocre players in order to maintain a mediocre roster for another year or two, you're already at the point where you need to rebuild. The obvious choice was to let most of those guys walk and get on with it. Re-signing them not only delayed the inevitable, but made it that much more difficult to actually fix. And this is not hindsight talking. We were saying this two, three, four years ago. We all saw it, clear as day. Why couldn't Holland?

As for DeKeyser and Glendening, who were younger when they signed their extensions? I think those were also obvious overpayments from day one. I think both are, frankly, pretty lousy players by NHL standards, and were simply massively overrated by the coaching and management staff. Your mileage on that may vary.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, though I'll add my own take on the contract situation.

Of the big, long contracts I think Zetterberg, Kronwall, Tatar, and Nyquist were all very defensible when they were signed. Z's deal was awesome and has turned out about as well as it possibly could have. Tats and Nike haven't quite had the results that were expected of them, but are still solid players. Kronwall's was the most iffy at the time (a 7-year deal for a 31-year-old defenseman is probably not going to look great at the end) and he's declined harder and faster than hoped, but the Wings were still getting a pretty good deal on him during the years when they were still fairly competitive.

Neilsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Ericsson, and Howard were IMO obvious overpayments even from the very beginning, and every single one of those deals looks as bad or worse today as they did back then. Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Ericsson and Howard all got huge raises and long-term deals despite all being around 30 years old (i.e., at the tail end of their expected prime years) when the new deals kicked in.

It's not that these guys were or are bad players, but it's like Holland completely forgot that, oh yeah, players tend to keep getting worse at hockey throughout their 30s, especially when they weren't all-stars to begin with. He was paying them like he expected them to actually improve slightly over ages 30-35, which is insane. Their failure to live up to their deals was utterly predictable.

I get why there was still a strong organizational desire to remain as competitive as possible for as long as possible even a few years ago when they were still squeaking into the postseason by the skin of their teeth. And I get that in some cases Holland may have had to overpay to keep his own guys. But to sign those deals without realizing almost all of them would blow up in their faces almost immediately is willful ignorance.

If you have to massively overpay mediocre players in order to maintain a mediocre roster for another year or two, you're already at the point where you need to rebuild. The obvious choice was to let most of those guys walk and get on with it. Re-signing them not only delayed the inevitable, but made it that much more difficult to actually fix. And this is not hindsight talking. We were saying this two, three, four years ago. We all saw it, clear as day. Why couldn't Holland?

As for DeKeyser and Glendening, who were younger when they signed their extensions? I think those were also obvious overpayments from day one. I think both are, frankly, pretty lousy players by NHL standards, and were simply massively overrated by the coaching and management staff. Your mileage on that may vary.
- Sven22

Yup.... spot on Sven.