that's an utterly bad comparison. If a team has Eichel, >McAvoy, >Barzal/Tavares on their team, they're closer to a playoff spot than last place
- Sabresfan-365

Not really
It just goes to show u can have 2 amazing players, but if the rest of the team is very flawed- then it doesn’t matter how good they are

Look at Winnipeg
Only real difference between them missing the playoffs last year,
and being Cup Contenders this year,
is the level of Goaltending play they got

That ONE flaw in their team last year killed them
I think we’d agree the Sabres have more than just 1 flaw for the good players we do have to overcome
Right?

It’s not JUST Corsica though...
In Sbroads own words,
“Me & 365 have repeatedly said that the analytics community holds ROR in high regard”

I’m being sincere here,
Bc that’s surprising to me considering u guys both use Analytics so much

Obviously theses Experts see the same 5v5 stats as you guys do,
but there’s other stats that boost O’Reilly into the 20s,
whereas u guys have him ranked where?
In the 40s?
That’s a really big discrepancy
- jdfitz77

Those guys are like Stephen Burtch, who if you missed it yesterday, was ragging on Risto while miscounting his total career points. He was off by 31.

Same guy who thought it was in the leafs best interest to roll a Marincin-Franson top pair.

Look the analytics community may have some facy algorithms and numbers but as a general rule, all media advanced or otherwise all fall into the same categories. Some are good, some ride the fence, some are bad and some are just douchenozzles.

Some guys place more value in certain metrics than others, some guys suffer from confirmation bias the same as us, and some are just fans

EK Says Shea Weber is available.

Weber
for
Bogosian and Moulson.
- ImThatGuy

This might sound crazy,
but i wouldn’t do it

Doesn’t the Weber contract last like 87 more years?
I’m exaggerating of course,
but i want no part of that contract
Even if they kept half the Cap hit,
the length is still way too long for me

Not really
It just goes to show u can have 2 amazing players, but if the rest of the team is very flawed- then it doesn’t matter how good they are

Look at Winnipeg
Only real difference between them missing the playoffs last year,
and being Cup Contenders this year,
is the level of Goaltending play they got

That ONE flaw in their team last year killed them
I think we’d agree the Sabres have more than just 1 flaw for the good players we do have to overcome
Right?
- jdfitz77

yeah i recognize that a collection of good players can't make up for a bigger collection of bad. It's how much bad there is that we disagree on, because this team wasn't just bad. It was dead last.

Lack of a core and collection of complimentary players makes you bad. A core with no complimentary players makes you bad. But to be the worst team in the league, usually requires a broken/un finished core and no support cast

Those guys are like Stephen Burtch, who if you missed it yesterday, was ragging on Risto while miscounting his total career points. He was off by 31.

Same guy who thought it was in the leafs best interest to roll a Marincin-Franson top pair.

Look the analytics community may have some facy algorithms and numbers but as a general rule, all media advanced or otherwise all fall into the same categories. Some are good, some ride the fence, some are bad and some are just douchenozzles.

Some guys place more value in certain metrics than others, some guys suffer from confirmation bias the same as us, and some are just fans
- Sabresfan-365

Ok, that’s all fair
BUT
(I’m relying on what Sbroads said here, bc obviously i don’t delve into it like u guys do)
It seems like just about everyone holds O’Reilly in high regard

Not trying to be a d!ck here...
it just seems like there must be some validity when just about everyone is in agreement?

It’s not JUST Corsica though...
In Sbroads own words,
“Me & 365 have repeatedly said that the analytics community holds ROR in high regard”

I’m being sincere here,
Bc that’s surprising to me considering u guys both use Analytics so much

Obviously theses Experts see the same 5v5 stats as you guys do,
but there’s other stats that boost O’Reilly into the 20s,
whereas u guys have him ranked where?
In the 40s?
That’s a really big discrepancy
- jdfitz77

I'll take you at your word here that you're actually being sincere. This is the work that people at citing a lot recently. Filter by Buffalo, and you'll see exactly what drives RoR so high: faceoffs and PIMs. There's big discrepancies on RoR because he has extreme penalty and face off numbers, and there's no consensus on valuing such things.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/GARbyCMHockey66/GARchart

[quote=Boss34]Who said he was brought in to be a leader?
The brilliant gmtm?

Go look at his quotes from his time in Col. He wanted to be not only a leader, he wanted to be The leader. So I would say he, himself, said bring me in and I'll lead. Problem is it kinda led us the wrong way.
- SDSabre

It's almost like he says whatever is on his mind.
Whatever makes him more $.

Wasn't he the co-leader last year. Being that there was no captain?

Seams like he's leading the Canadian team
Ot goal

Ok, that’s all fair
BUT
(I’m relying on what Sbroads said here, bc obviously i don’t delve into it like u guys do)
It seems like just about everyone holds O’Reilly in high regard

Not trying to be a d!ck here...
it just seems like there must be some validity when just about everyone is in agreement?
- jdfitz77

I don't think just about everyone is in agreement though. I've seen people say he's not worth his deal, i've seen people say he is but should be moved at peak value anyways and i've seen guys defend him.

The consensus is that he's a good player, there's no disputing that, it's what to do with him moving forward.

EK Says Shea Weber is available.

Weber
for
Bogosian and Moulson.
- ImThatGuy

Weber and 3rd overall for ROR

yeah i recognize that a collection of good players can't make up for a bigger collection of bad. It's how much bad there is that we disagree on, because this team wasn't just bad. It was dead last.

Lack of a core and collection of complimentary players makes you bad. A core with no complimentary players makes you bad. But to be the worst team in the league, usually requires a broken/un finished core and no support cast
- Sabresfan-365

I’m gonna stick with the Winnipeg example
I think the gap between Cup Contemder & a team who missed the playoffs is pretty big

Just like the gap between a playoff contender & last place is pretty big

The Jets only flaw was goaltending to cause that huge gap between their team these past 2 seasons

Not only have we had to deal with bad goaltending...
-we had bad defense- who sucked in our own end AND had a lot of trouble moving the puck up the ice
-and little to none secondary scoring

If only ONE flaw, can harm such a talented Jets team
Then it seems crazy to punish Jack & ROR when we had THREE major flaws

Weber and 3rd overall for ROR
- gerbe75pts

Interesting timing based on his contract. All of his huge bonuses are done now.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/shea-weber

He was paid $12m this year, but will only be owed 48m over the rest of the life of it.

That may be attractive to a team looking for an impact player being paid less than the cap hit.

I still think Shea weber would be a horrible decision, as he is signed for 8 more years.

Does Nashville get hit with the cap recapture when he reires? The last 3 years, he's making $1m per.

No way he plays those

I don't think just about everyone is in agreement though. I've seen people say he's not worth his deal, i've seen people say he is but should be moved at peak value anyways and i've seen guys defend him.

The consensus is that he's a good player, there's no disputing that, it's what to do with him moving forward.
- Sabresfan-365

Again, that’s fair
It’s just when i see ppl say he ranks in the 40s or compare him to a 4th liner like Armia bc they have similar pts/60 stats that i take issue
That just goes WAY too far

It's almost like he says whatever is on his mind.
Whatever makes him more $.

Wasn't he the co-leader last year. Being that there was no captain?

Seams like he's leading the Canadian team
Ot goal
- Boss34

LOL, He scored an OT goal so he is a leader now?

Again, that’s fair
It’s just when i see ppl say he ranks in the 40s or compare him to a 4th liner like Armia bc they have similar pts/60 stats that i take issue
That just goes WAY too far
- jdfitz77

Thing is, broads and I don't view Armia as a fourth liner.

Again, that’s fair
It’s just when i see ppl say he ranks in the 40s or compare him to a 4th liner like Armia bc they have similar pts/60 stats that i take issue
That just goes WAY too far
- jdfitz77

A #40 center is one of the best second line centers in the league. That suggestion shouldn't bother anybody.

I’m gonna stick with the Winnipeg example
I think the gap between Cup Contemder & a team who missed the playoffs is pretty big

Just like the gap between a playoff contender & last place is pretty big

The Jets only flaw was goaltending to cause that huge gap between their team these past 2 seasons

Not only have we had to deal with bad goaltending...
-we had bad defense- who sucked in our own end AND had a lot of trouble moving the puck up the ice
-and little to none secondary scoring

If only ONE flaw, can harm such a talented Jets team
Then it seems crazy to punish Jack & ROR when we had THREE major flaws
- jdfitz77

Not to bring this up again, but a lot of manually tracked data over the year suggested Ristolainen was part of this problem as well.

Im not saying he or ROR or Reinhart were solely responsible. Im saying for a team to be 31st, its almost all gotta be going wrong, including those guys.

I'll take you at your word here that you're actually being sincere. This is the work that people at citing a lot recently. Filter by Buffalo, and you'll see exactly what drives RoR so high: faceoffs and PIMs. There's big discrepancies on RoR because he has extreme penalty and face off numbers, and there's no consensus on valuing such things.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/GARbyCMHockey66/GARchart
- Lunaion

While I’m sure different sites will weight those stats to different degrees...
it’s still just about everyone holding ROR in a much higher regard than Sbroads & 365 & Homie do
Homie’s issue seems to be lack of leadership, which i just can’t quantify with stats
But Sbroads & 365 seem to base their opinion of him on 5v5 stats

And while i get what they’re saying...
i also think that u have to take into account that ROR doesn’t have wingers like Scheiffle does (Wheeler & Connor) and that he starts more in his own end than any other Center in the entire league

If u put O’Reilly in Schieffle’s spot...
i bet he’d be a ppg player
Obviously i can’t prove that
Just seems to reason that he’d get more pts if he was starting in the OffZone A LOT more & with really good wingers instead of guys who struggle for half the season (or more)

Thing is, broads and I don't view Armia as a fourth liner.
- Sabresfan-365

Well not that i wanna start an argument after we’ve had a reasonably calm discussion...
but what do u consider him?
It’s not like the guy is gonna turn into Marchessault if he’s given top6 minutes

When icetime increases,
scoring doesn’t increase at the same rate
Not usually anyways

Not to bring this up again, but a lot of manually tracked data over the year suggested Ristolainen was part of this problem as well.

Im not saying he or ROR or Reinhart were solely responsible. Im saying for a team to be 31st, its almost all gotta be going wrong, including those guys.
- Sabresfan-365

i swear a good part of ristos minutes come from him icing the puck. he has to be close to the top of the league in icings.

LOL, He scored an OT goal so he is a leader now?
- ImThatGuy

That’s just as valid a point as when ppl said he was doing a bad job of “leading” bc he was scoreless in 4 games

Well not that i wanna start an argument after we’ve had a reasonably calm discussion...
but what do u consider him?
It’s not like the guy is gonna turn into Marchessault if he’s given top6 minutes

When icetime increases,
scoring doesn’t increase at the same rate
Not usually anyways
- jdfitz77

that's why p/60 is a fan favourite, but stats almost always go up with more ice time. Like when Girgs got first line duties under nolan and was dubbed future captain.

I thnk Armia is a an above average third liner

I'll take you at your word here that you're actually being sincere. This is the work that people at citing a lot recently. Filter by Buffalo, and you'll see exactly what drives RoR so high: faceoffs and PIMs. There's big discrepancies on RoR because he has extreme penalty and face off numbers, and there's no consensus on valuing such things.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/GARbyCMHockey66/GARchart
- Lunaion

Good find

i swear a good part of ristos minutes come from him icing the puck. he has to be close to the top of the league in icings.
- TheHank

He's not a good puck mover, and to make housley's system work, we need good to great puck movers in the top 4.

It's almost like he says whatever is on his mind.
Whatever makes him more $.

Wasn't he the co-leader last year. Being that there was no captain?

Seams like he's leading the Canadian team
Ot goal
- Boss34

Sure, of a team that finished dead last. If that's your propagative, more power to ya. All I'm saying is he's not particularly fast, not particularily a leader, not particularly a goal scorer, not particulary a set up man. A master of none, so to speak (But But Faceoffs)

Basil is good. Rosemary is an affront to a refined palate
- jcragcrumple

#(frank)Rosemary

#GarlicFTW