-SNIP-

Hagg, even though he's only 23, pretty much is what he is, a 3rd pair defender who can give you some minutes on the PK and bring some physicality to the game. Morin is already, once healthy, pretty much doing everything Hagg can. Plus he's a flat out beast, more skilled, faster and better suited for success on the PK. He could end up being a solid 2nd pair guy if he keeps working on his overall game.

I have no doubt that if Morin can stay healthy, he's a better all around player than Hagg and that he will pass him on the depth chart. I could see this happening by late in this upcoming season.
- BiggE

And I'm fine with that. I think we were all thinking Hagg could be a top-4 guy. But really, he's fine for what he is. He's a 3rd pair defender, is paid accordingly, and unlike a former everyday Flyer defender, has NHL-level skills for his role. If Hagg never transitions past his role, but is an everyday player, I think he's solid for the 3rd pair.

Cheaper than I expected, and now the roster looks good to go with over $10m in cap space.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers

Hagg's deal is perfectly fine.

He's a 23 YO defenseman with 70 some NHL games. I'm not quite ready to declare he's a bust or he is what he was last year or whatever.

Let's see him with some different partners in the mix.

Ghost's contract looks like more of a bargain every day.

https://www.capfriendly.c...ayers/shayne-gostisbehere
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/brady-skjei

And I'm fine with that. I think we were all thinking Hagg could be a top-4 guy. But really, he's fine for what he is. He's a 3rd pair defender, is paid accordingly, and unlike a former everyday Flyer defender, has NHL-level skills for his role. If Hagg never transitions past his role, but is an everyday player, I think he's solid for the 3rd pair.
- jmatchett383

To me Hagg is a guy that can play anywhere from 4 to 6 range on defense. When he was paired with Gostisbehere they were a pretty solid pairing for a while. Also early in the year Hagg and Provorov usually were out to close out games I believe.

Hagg's deal is perfectly fine.

He's a 23 YO defenseman with 70 some NHL games. I'm not quite ready to declare he's a bust or he is what he was last year or whatever.

Let's see him with some different partners in the mix.
- johndewar

I see that as a legit issue right now. Until they let Myers play there is basically always going to be at least one pairing as a liability

Markov

And now, because work is slow, here are my all time, by decade, Flyers 1st and 2nd all star teams. Yes, I have WAY too much time on my hands!

1967-1977
First team/Second team
G-Bernie Parent/Doug Favell
D-Barry Ashbee/Joe Watson
D-Ed Van Impe/Jim Watson
LW-Bill Barber/Ross Lonsberry
C-Bobby Clarke/Rick Macleish
RW-Reggie Leach/Gary Dornhoefer

Not too many tough calls on this one. Gave a bit of consideration to Moose Dupont for 2nd team D and you could make a case, since Leach was only there for 3 of those years, for flipping him and Dorny, but Leach's 75-76 season alone was almost enough for me to give him the top spot and once you add in 74-75 he gets the edge .

1977-1987
G-Pelle Lindbergh/Pete Peeters
D-Mark Howe/Brad Marsh
D-Bob Dailey/Brad McCrimmon
C-Bobby Clarke/Ken Linseman
LW-Brian Propp/Bill Barber
RW-Tim Kerr/Paul Holmgren

This was a much tougher decade as it was a very transitional time. Pelle was a no brainer for top goalie, but 2nd team was a tough one. I went with Peeters over Hextall because as good as he was in his rookie year, it was still just one season. D was another tough one. Hard not to have Jimmy Watson in there somewhere, but his best years, 74-80, kind of overlapped the first 2 decades and I couldn't make a case for bumping any of the other 4 out. Gave Poulin some consideration at 2nd team center, but his first 2 seasons, he mostly played LW and overall, during that specific decade, I thought the Rat was the better overall player as a Flyer. Finally, I gave both Sinisalo and Tocchet some consideration at 2nd RW, but in the end, I went with Holmgren.

1987-1997
G-Ron Hextall/Garth Snow
D-Eric Desjardins/Kjell Samuelsson
D-Mark Howe/Garry Galley
C-Eric Lindros/Rod Brind'amour
LW-John Leclair/Pelle Eklund
RW-Mark Recchi/Mikael Renberg

Gave Snowthe edge over Wregget, but it was close. Gave Galley the edge over Therien, but it was close. Center was a no brainer. Gave Recchi the edge over Renberg due to Renberg's injury issues. I also gave a little thought to Dineen and moreso Tocchet at RW, but they couldn't beat out Renberg.

1997-2007
G-Roman Cechmanek/Brian Boucher
D-Eric Desjardins/Chris Therien
D-Kim Johnsson/Marcus Ragnarsson
C-Jeremy Roenick/Keith Primeau
LW-Simon Gagne/John Leclair
RW-Mark Recchi/Sami Kapanen

Another tough era. Cechmanek, based on his stellar regular season numbers and lack of much competition gets the top nod in goal. Boosh narrowly edged Esche for the 2nd spot. The top D pair was easy as was Bundy for the 3rd spot. The 4th spot was a tough one, but I went with the big Swede who I think was very underrated when he was here. I went back and forth on the order at center, but gave Roenick the edge. I also gave Lindros some consideration, but outside of the 98-99 season, he didn't do enough from 97-00 to get him in the top 2. Left wing and Recchi at 1st RW were no brainers. I went with Sami at 2nd RW due to his work ethic and his big game ability.

2007-2017
G-Steve Mason/Marty Biron
D-Kimmo Timonen/Chris Pronger
D-Braydon Coburn/Derian Hatcher
C-Claude Giroux/Danny Briere
LW-Scott Hartnell/Simon Gagne
RW-Jake Voracek/Wayne Simmonds

Another tough one and sorry Mason haters, but tell me who, from 2007-2017 was a better Flyer goalie? Timonen easily gets the top spot on D. I gave Coburn the edge over Pronger mainly due to Pronger's not being here that long. Hatcher gets the last spot because he's one tough S.O.B. and I loved the way he played the game. Ghost got some consideration too, but without 17-18 factoring in, not enough to make the cut. Giroux as the top center was easy, but the #2 was a tough one. Briere narrowly edged out Richards and Carter mainly because of the way he stepped up in the post season. Hartnell, Jake and Simmonds were all easy picks in their spots, but 2nd LW was a tough one. In the end I went with Gagne over JVR due to his play from 07-10 and the way he kind of got screwed over in the end.

OK, feel free to differ!

First team/Second team
G-Bernie Parent/Doug Favell

- BiggE

Favell over Taylor and Stephenson? I'd give it to Stephenson for 75/76 alone.

From the end of the last thread:

Morin has some obstacles to overcome first, recovery from injury and staying healthy. Then how his performance and consistency is. He has a decent stretch before he can even be part of the conversation with the Flyers blueline.
- Glak18


Absolutely. However, I've seen enough of him and Hagg to make the following comparisons:

Skating
Neither guy is remotely nimble or quick, but Morin is the faster skater and also benefits from his huge stride. Both are pretty sturdy on their skates.
-slight edge Morin

Passing/playmaking
Morin makes the more accurate outlet pass, and while he'll never be an offensive Dman by any stretch of the imagination, he does bring a bit more skill and creativity to the table than Hagg
-edge Morin

Shot
Morin, if he has time to get it off, has a cannon. Neither is particularly accurate, nor can get a shot off quickly
-slight edge Morin

Physicality
Hagg is a willing and active checker who likes to take the body. He will land more total hits than Morin. Morin though, hits harder and adds the pure intimidation element that no other Dman on the club has.
-edge Morin

Zone defense
Hagg gives up the zone pretty easily, Morin too needs some work in this department, but in general, he uses his reach to break up entries with some success.
-slight edge Morin

Defense zone positioning and awareness
Both are pretty good at separating attacking forwards from the puck and both are relatively sound positionally. Hagg hits a lot, but he doesn't usually take himself out of position to do so, Morin OTOH, is occasionally guilty of this
-slight edge Hagg

On-ice discipline
Hagg doesn't take a lot of bad penalties and plays a relatively clean game. Morin doesn't take many lazy penalties either, but he will lose his cool at times and take an occasional penalty of aggression.
-slight edge Hagg

Overall transitioning from D to offense
Hagg is flat out poor at this. Morin still needs work, but he's already better than Hagg in this dept.
-edge Morin

OVERALL
Hagg, even though he's only 23, pretty much is what he is, a 3rd pair defender who can give you some minutes on the PK and bring some physicality to the game. Morin is already, once healthy, pretty much doing everything Hagg can. Plus he's a flat out beast, more skilled, faster and better suited for success on the PK. He could end up being a solid 2nd pair guy if he keeps working on his overall game.

I have no doubt that if Morin can stay healthy, he's a better all around player than Hagg and that he will pass him on the depth chart. I could see this happening by late in this upcoming season.
- BiggE

In my mind there is no question that I feel Morin's skillset is above Hagg and you seem to agree, but having the better skillset doesn't necessarily equivalate to success in the NHL. There is a reason teams, not just the Flyers, have players fans just hate on their team because they feel they suck in the NHL aka VDV. The fact is most of those players do a better job at the role they are assigned than the more skilled player, at least in the eyes of their coaches.

Is Hagg currently a better NHL player than Morin, absolutely, but that doesn't mean Morin can't change that. The biggest difference between the two, Hagg has shown his ability to handle the assigned role and Morin hasn't. I consider both to be potential 5/6 defensemen, who can handle their role better determines who plays. I don't like to do the whole "will/could/should" argument, just do and go from there.

Should I get the Witcher 3
- bulet13

Only if you like great games and have patience.

IMO Morin is a much better skater than Hagg.

I don't think Hagg is bad, and some of the things he does are nice. Paired with Gudas or AMac is a tire fire though and I seriously hope they stop doing that. I like him paired with someone who is able to move the puck up the ice, but honestly I prefer two guys who can move the puck up the ice the most
- YuenglingJagr

In regards to straight ahead speed, no question, Morin is much better than Hagg. but neither is remotely quick or nimble.

Cheaper than I expected, and now the roster looks good to go with over $10m in cap space.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers
- Feanor

10 million in cap space. Wow, that has to be a first in team history.

Ghost's contract looks like more of a bargain every day.

https://www.capfriendly.c...ayers/shayne-gostisbehere
https://www.capfriendly.com/players/brady-skjei
- Feanor

Ghost and Coots both.

10 million in cap space. Wow, that has to be a first in team history.
- BiggE

I guesstimate around 7-9 million next year after signing their RFAs, not including re-signing Simmonds if they choose to do so.

Update: And not including salary cap ceiling change.

And now, because work is slow, here are my all time, by decade, Flyers 1st and 2nd all star teams. Yes, I have WAY too much time on my hands!

1967-1977
First team/Second team
G-Bernie Parent/Doug Favell
D-Barry Ashbee/Joe Watson
D-Ed Van Impe/Jim Watson
LW-Bill Barber/Ross Lonsberry
C-Bobby Clarke/Rick Macleish
RW-Reggie Leach/Gary Dornhoefer

Not too many tough calls on this one. Gave a bit of consideration to Moose Dupont for 2nd team D and you could make a case, since Leach was only there for 3 of those years, for flipping him and Dorny, but Leach's 75-76 season alone was almost enough for me to give him the top spot and once you add in 74-75 he gets the edge .

1977-1987
G-Pelle Lindbergh/Pete Peeters
D-Mark Howe/Brad Marsh
D-Bob Dailey/Brad McCrimmon
C-Bobby Clarke/Ken Linseman
LW-Brian Propp/Bill Barber
RW-Tim Kerr/Paul Holmgren

This was a much tougher decade as it was a very transitional time. Pelle was a no brainer for top goalie, but 2nd team was a tough one. I went with Peeters over Hextall because as good as he was in his rookie year, it was still just one season. D was another tough one. Hard not to have Jimmy Watson in there somewhere, but his best years, 74-80, kind of overlapped the first 2 decades and I couldn't make a case for bumping any of the other 4 out. Gave Poulin some consideration at 2nd team center, but his first 2 seasons, he mostly played LW and overall, during that specific decade, I thought the Rat was the better overall player as a Flyer. Finally, I gave both Sinisalo and Tocchet some consideration at 2nd RW, but in the end, I went with Holmgren.

1987-1997
G-Ron Hextall/Garth Snow
D-Eric Desjardins/Kjell Samuelsson
D-Mark Howe/Garry Galley
C-Eric Lindros/Rod Brind'amour
LW-John Leclair/Pelle Eklund
RW-Mark Recchi/Mikael Renberg

Gave Snowthe edge over Wregget, but it was close. Gave Galley the edge over Therien, but it was close. Center was a no brainer. Gave Recchi the edge over Renberg due to Renberg's injury issues. I also gave a little thought to Dineen and moreso Tocchet at RW, but they couldn't beat out Renberg.

1997-2007
G-Roman Cechmanek/Brian Boucher
D-Eric Desjardins/Chris Therien
D-Kim Johnsson/Marcus Ragnarsson
C-Jeremy Roenick/Keith Primeau
LW-Simon Gagne/John Leclair
RW-Mark Recchi/Sami Kapanen

Another tough era. Cechmanek, based on his stellar regular season numbers and lack of much competition gets the top nod in goal. Boosh narrowly edged Esche for the 2nd spot. The top D pair was easy as was Bundy for the 3rd spot. The 4th spot was a tough one, but I went with the big Swede who I think was very underrated when he was here. I went back and forth on the order at center, but gave Roenick the edge. I also gave Lindros some consideration, but outside of the 98-99 season, he didn't do enough from 97-00 to get him in the top 2. Left wing and Recchi at 1st RW were no brainers. I went with Sami at 2nd RW due to his work ethic and his big game ability.

2007-2017
G-Steve Mason/Marty Biron
D-Kimmo Timonen/Chris Pronger
D-Braydon Coburn/Derian Hatcher
C-Claude Giroux/Danny Briere
LW-Scott Hartnell/Simon Gagne
RW-Jake Voracek/Wayne Simmonds

Another tough one and sorry Mason haters, but tell me who, from 2007-2017 was a better Flyer goalie? Timonen easily gets the top spot on D. I gave Coburn the edge over Pronger mainly due to Pronger's not being here that long. Hatcher gets the last spot because he's one tough S.O.B. and I loved the way he played the game. Ghost got some consideration too, but without 17-18 factoring in, not enough to make the cut. Giroux as the top center was easy, but the #2 was a tough one. Briere narrowly edged out Richards and Carter mainly because of the way he stepped up in the post season. Hartnell, Jake and Simmonds were all easy picks in their spots, but 2nd LW was a tough one. In the end I went with Gagne over JVR due to his play from 07-10 and the way he kind of got screwed over in the end.

OK, feel free to differ!
- BiggE

Pretty good list. Only changes I would make are like Richardson over ragnarrson although I liked ragnarssons game too. I’m assuming your counting Hatcher’s 06-07 season but discount ghosts 17-18 season? Not sure why, but I would definitely have ghost over a decrepit hatcher season in 07/08 where he managed 44 games. Come to think of it....I’d have streit over both of them

Favell over Taylor and Stephenson? I'd give it to Stephenson for 75/76 alone.
- Scoob

Looking at the whole body of work, I had to go with Favell who was there from 67-73. Stephenson was very good in 75-76, but he arguably had the best Flyers team of all time playing in front of him that year while Favvy played behind some pretty mediocre teams. Taylor wasn't even a consideration as he was strictly a backup for most of the time he was in Philly. Favell was great in 72-73 and, all in all, solid the rest of the time he was with the Flyers.

Pretty good list. Only changes I would make are like Richardson over ragnarrson although I liked ragnarssons game too. I’m assuming your counting Hatcher’s 06-07 season but discount ghosts 17-18 season? Not sure why, but I would definitely have ghost over a decrepit hatcher season in 07/08 where he managed 44 games.
- Just5

Hatcher got the edge because of the ridiculous injuries he played through and the leadership he showed in the 08 playoffs. But, I could have easily gone with Ghost as well. It was a tough call. Once you get past the top 3, defense was pretty much a black hole for the Flyers from 07-17.

Hatcher got the edge because of the ridiculous injuries he played through and the leadership he showed in the 08 playoffs. But, I could have easily gone with Ghost as well. It was a tough call. Once you get past the top 3, defense was pretty much a black hole for the Flyers from 07-17.
- BiggE

I’d actually put streit in there

I can't do the 60s/70s/80s because I didn't start watching until the early 90s

1987-1997
G-Ron Hextall/Garth Snow
D-Eric Desjardins/Petr Svoboda
D-Mark Howe/Garry Galley
C-Eric Lindros/Rod Brind'amour
LW-John Leclair/Shjon Podein
RW-Mark Recchi/Mikael Renberg

Again, since I wasn't watching the in 80s, this is more of a 1992-1997 list (exception being Howe). Goalies were easy for me, and I think Svoboda was a huge part is finally solidifying the defense. I put Podein in there because the dude's motor never stopped, and I didn't get to see Eklund's best days. Rest is pretty self-explanatory.

1997-2007
G-Roman Cechmanek/Brian Boucher
D-Eric Desjardins/Chris Therien
D-Kim Johnsson/Dan McGillis
C-Jeremy Roenick/Peter Forsberg
LW-Simon Gagne/John Leclair
RW-Mark Recchi/Justin Williams

Agree on the goalies, although Esche and Cechmanek were opposites (regular season vs. playoff play). I took McGillis as the #4 because, despite not being Swedish, dude was fun to watch. Although he was only here for less than 2 years and injured, Forsberg was just too good to leave off. I'm gonna go with Williams at the 2nd RW spot for his hair, I mean, for being JvR lite.

2007-2017
G-Steve Mason/Marty Biron
D-Kimmo Timonen/Chris Pronger
D-Braydon Coburn/Andrej Meszaros
C-Claude Giroux/Mike Richards
LW-Scott Hartnell/Simon Gagne
RW-Jake Voracek/Wayne Simmonds

I actually considered Leighton as the 2nd goalie, but the Kane goal... I put Meszaros in because, after Pronger went down, it was a tire fire past Timonen/Coburn and Meszaros was a good 2-way defender before he was held together with scotch tape and elmer's glue. Richards gets the nod here based partially on person bias, but from 2007-2010, was what you wanted from a Flyers captain.

See horizon line of summer,
Summer sucks!

I’d actually put streit in there
- Just5

Honestly forgot about him, LOL. Good call. The only other guy I gave some consideration for that spot was Matt Carle, but he was just so bad after Pronger went down that I just couldn't do it.

Looking at the whole body of work, I had to go with Favell who was there from 67-73. Stephenson was very good in 75-76, but he arguably had the best Flyers team of all time playing in front of him that year while Favvy played behind some pretty mediocre teams. Taylor wasn't even a consideration as he was strictly a backup for most of the time he was in Philly. Favell was great in 72-73 and, all in all, solid the rest of the time he was with the Flyers.
- BiggE

Agree on Taylor - he gets the sentimental vote - as a kid I felt bad for him because he never got to play lol

Favell was before my time, and yeah, looking at the years he was okay, but I still give WS the nod.

From previous blog



I like Hagg more than some, not as much as others. I think in a limited #6 role, he's acceptable, but he doesn't do enough (yet - or maybe ever) to help the team win. He does not pass well consistently and can get out of position due to limited mobility. Unlike Mono, I do think he has decent hockey sense but his mobility and puck skills make it seem like he's dumb (No offense to you Mono - I very much trust your hockey eye).

He does do the simple play well. Being good at board pins, and cancellations at net front is a good thing (particularly come playoff time), but it doesn't matter if when you have the puck on your stick, all you do is flip it off the glass for the other team to recover and attack again.

That's the biggest issue people have with Hagg, and they don't see it in his game consistently enough to think he can develop it. I think he can get better with the puck, but I don't know how much. That is why I like the deal, 2 years to see if he can get better. If not, it's a pretty easy contract to move.
- VladDrag

One of the biggest issues I see with rating players is looking at them through the same microscope. To the same standard of a strong puck moving 2 way play. I think the best term you used was he makes the simple play. He makes a decent first pass and defends well. Plays a strong physical game in the corners and around the net. He is limited but team's need players like that. As he gains more experience he'll get better in his anticipation and reads and will make a solid 3rd pair defenseman down the line

I guesstimate around 7-9 million next year after signing their RFAs, not including re-signing Simmonds if they choose to do so.

Update: And not including salary cap ceiling change.
- Glak18

yeah as of now they have roughly 34 million in cap space and even if you try to assume the most expensive side

provorov - 8
konecny - 6
laughton - 3
sanheim - 4
goalie - 3

10 million left with with 5-7 roster spots left (at least half of which will likely be < $1)