For me personally he doesn't qualify as a winger.

He's a centre that played wing last season. Imo
- walshyleafsfan

so then Marner is out too.....he's listed as a center

Eastern conf wingers who are definitely ahead of marner

marchand, skinner, stone, giroux, kessel, kuznetzov

guys who are probably ahead or on the same level

huberdeau, pastrnak, aho (car), pacioretty, simmonds, plus a few more i'm sure i'm forgetting

marner is good, and will probably be a top 5 guy eventually........ but he's not even a top 10 winger yet, let alone a top 5......regardless of your bias
- sensarmy_11

Kuznetsov is a centre.

Huberdau no.
Pasternak yes, currently better.
Simmonds not even close.
I think both Nylander and Marner would realistically sneak onto the bottom of a top ten list.


5. Marchand 6. Giroux 7. Stone. 8. Pasternak 9. Marner 10. Nylander.

That's probably pretty accurate. I think a lot of the people who don't follow the Leafs might not realize just how good Marner became last year around January.

so what you're saying is you're ranking him that high, even though you know he has no business being ranked anywhere close to there.

that's like me saying that Thomas Chabot is a top 5 dman in the league....based on potential and my personal bias.....and despite the fact that guys like spatso actually probably believe that statement, it's ridiculous and completely false
- sensarmy_11

I think you're taking this entirely too seriously. But since Thomas Chabot probably isn't ever going to be one of the best in the NHL, that's not even close to the same. When you make a ridiculous false equivalency it really kills your argument.

But again, it makes no sense that you're arguing here since I said in the actual article why I was doing it.

so then Marner is out too.....he's listed as a center
- sensarmy_11

To be fair, Marner has never played a game at centre in his NHL career. Giroux has played about 8 or so seasons as a centre.

I think you're taking this entirely too seriously. But since Thomas Chabot probably isn't ever going to be one of the best in the NHL, that's not even close to the same. When you make a ridiculous false equivalency it really kills your argument.

But again, it makes no sense that you're arguing here since I said in the actual article why I was doing it.
- james_tanner1

what's the point in posting a top 5 list when you include a player who is clearly nowhere near the top 5?

you make idiotic claims like this ALL THE TIME.....and it's basically the reason you have zero credibility

So Tanner dinged Crosby on the Eastern centerman list because of his age and future decline then has no problem throwing a 2 years older Ovie in at #1 on this list...hypocritical much?
- RuutuRock’emLikeU2#37

How can a personal opinion even be hypocritical? Especially with two arbitrary subjects and someone else's bad false comparison? IT might not follow strict logic, but certainly you're misusing this word.

I will say this: Ovechkin, probably because he hasn't has 11 concussions, has not declined as much as Crosby. Not to say Crosby is declining fast or that he isn't still one of the best players in the NHL, but he has been surpassed by two generational players in McDavid and Matthews. This is a statistical fact. You're mad that a 30 year old isn't as good as two kids approaching their peaks? Come on.


Based on last year, Ovechkin was the best winger in the NHL. That's just the facts.

To be fair, Marner has never played a game at centre in his NHL career. Giroux has played about 8 or so seasons as a centre.
- walshyleafsfan

but he's a winger now......so he's ranked as a winger.


brent burns and byfuglien played a couple seasons worth of games as wingers.....but right now they play D, so they're dmen.

right now giroux plays wing, so he's a winger

what's the point in posting a top 5 list when you include a player who is clearly nowhere near the top 5?

you make idiotic claims like this ALL THE TIME.....and it's basically the reason you have zero credibility
- sensarmy_11

I love it!!

He always gets everyone so mad!

How can a personal opinion even be hypocritical? Especially with two arbitrary subjects and someone else's bad false comparison? IT might not follow strict logic, but certainly you're misusing this word.

I will say this: Ovechkin, probably because he hasn't has 11 concussions, has not declined as much as Crosby. Not to say Crosby is declining fast or that he isn't still one of the best players in the NHL, but he has been surpassed by two generational players in McDavid and Matthews. This is a statistical fact. You're mad that a 30 year old isn't as good as two kids approaching their peaks? Come on.


Based on last year, Ovechkin was the best winger in the NHL. That's just the facts.
- james_tanner1

mcdavid is on par with crosby.

matthews isn't yet fit to wash his jock.............yet another instance of your ridiculous bias, and yet another instance of why you have zero credibility

I love it!!

He always gets everyone so mad!
- Leniwm1

i don't think anyone is mad.....i think people genuinely enjoy calling tanner out for the ignorant homer that he is

but he's a winger now......so he's ranked as a winger.


brent burns and byfuglien played a couple seasons worth of games as wingers.....but right now they play D, so they're dmen.

right now giroux plays wing, so he's a winger
- sensarmy_11

How many games do you have to play at a certain position to be counted as said position? Would 10 seasons as a dman and 1 game (the last game) as a winger mean that player is a winger?.

What's the cutoff point?

Claude Giroux is listed as centre

what's the point in posting a top 5 list when you include a player who is clearly nowhere near the top 5?

you make idiotic claims like this ALL THE TIME.....and it's basically the reason you have zero credibility
- sensarmy_11

I don't think you understand that I don't want, need or respect the idea of credibility. Jeff O'Neil is one of the most 'credible' hockey analysts. Mike Milbury, Don Cherry, etc. Even Bob Mackenzie once called Matt Hunwick one of the best shut-down D in the NHL. I mean, you could go all day listing everyone's bad takes, and who cares? If you have a platform you can either go directly up the middle, offend no one, never have any HOT TAKES and have tons of credibility, or you can think for yourself.

Personally, I think its extremely dumb if you consider any writer or analyst so credible that you don't fact check or follow up on their ideas before considering them true.

I write what I write in order to entertain.. I don't just say random stuff, but in fact I always state why I say it (admitting in the article I picked Marner bc he's my favorite player etc) and how I came up with it (Ovechkin leading the league in Corsica GAR and WAR for example).

What I find, is that if you don't go along with the mainstream opinion, no matter how dumb it is, you get called an idiot with no credibility. But I don't find that credible, so what's a boy to do?


Point is, don't take anyone's opinion or ideas as fact. Check into everything. Make up your own mind.

I get DMs, PMS, EMails, Tweets and Comments every day from people who say 'hey i never thought of it like that' and those are the people I'm trying to reach. Your typical loudmouth on the internet who hates anything that challenges what they already believe? I could not care less.

Pretty sure I explained it in detail. "I am ranking him this high based on a combination of personal bias and potential."

How could I have been any clearer?
- james_tanner1

You were clear. I’m saying your wrong bud.

How many games do you have to play at a certain position to be counted as said position? Would 10 seasons as a dman and 1 game (the last game) as a winger mean that player is a winger?.

What's the cutoff point?
- walshyleafsfan

i'd say a full season as a winger makes you a winger.

my cutoff would be, whatever position you played the most the previous season is what you should be listed as. if you played 42 games as a winger and 40 as a center, then to me you're a winger

How many games do you have to play at a certain position to be counted as said position? Would 10 seasons as a dman and 1 game (the last game) as a winger mean that player is a winger?.

What's the cutoff point?

Claude Giroux is listed as centre
- walshyleafsfan

Dude, he played last season at the wing. This is the worst thing I've ever seen anyone argue on this website. Everyone participating in the hotstove considers him a winger. He's a winger.

Dude, he played last season at the wing. This is the worst thing I've ever seen anyone argue on this website. Everyone participating in the hotstove considers him a winger. He's a winger.
- james_tanner1

How many games does he have to play at Centre next season to become a centre again?

I don't think you understand that I don't want, need or respect the idea of credibility. Jeff O'Neil is one of the most 'credible' hockey analysts. Mike Milbury, Don Cherry, etc. Even Bob Mackenzie once called Matt Hunwick one of the best shut-down D in the NHL. I mean, you could go all day listing everyone's bad takes, and who cares? If you have a platform you can either go directly up the middle, offend no one, never have any HOT TAKES and have tons of credibility.

Personally, I think its extremely dumb if you consider any writer or analyst so credible that you don't fact check or follow up on their ideas before considering them true.

I write what I write in order to entertain and makes some money. I don't just say random stuff, but in fact I always state why I say it (admitting in the article I picked Marner bc he's my favorite player etc) and how I came up with it (Ovechkin leading the league in Corsica GAR and WAR for example).

What I find, is that if you don't go along with the mainstream opinion, no matter how dumb it is, you get called an idiot with no credibility. But I don't find that credible, so what's a boy to do?


Point is, don't take anyone's opinion or ideas as fact. Check into everything. Make up your own mind.

I get DMs, PMS, EMails, Tweets and Comments every day from people who say 'hey i never thought of it like that' and those are the people I'm trying to reach. You're typical loudmouth on the internet who hates anything that challenges what they already believe? I could not care less.
- james_tanner1

i'm not that at all......i think a lot of what you write is good. what i can't stand is when your ridiculous leaf bias comes in to play.

i think you know a great deal about hockey, i think a lot of what you write makes sense and is well founded in logic and fact........then, you write about the leafs and their players, and ALL of that goes out the window.

is Matthews a great center with the potential to be a top 3 guy.....absolutely. is he a top 3 guy now, who's better than guys like crosby, stamkos, and tavares.....hell (frank)ing no

is jake gardiner a decent possession dman....sure. does he even sniff the top 50 of nhl dmen, let alone the top 10 (as you've previously claimed).....(frank) no

you write good articles......and then as soon as the subject of the leafs comes up it's like you have this "idiot homer" button in your brain that you switch to on.

How can a personal opinion even be hypocritical? Especially with two arbitrary subjects and someone else's bad false comparison? IT might not follow strict logic, but certainly you're misusing this word.

I will say this: Ovechkin, probably because he hasn't has 11 concussions, has not declined as much as Crosby. Not to say Crosby is declining fast or that he isn't still one of the best players in the NHL, but he has been surpassed by two generational players in McDavid and Matthews. This is a statistical fact. You're mad that a 30 year old isn't as good as two kids approaching their peaks? Come on.


Based on last year, Ovechkin was the best winger in the NHL. That's just the facts.
- james_tanner1

So how was he passed by Matthews that hasn't broke 70 points yet? I am with the majority of fans of hockey in saying that you are just dumb. Matthews is really good but he is not on the same level of Sid or McDavid. I'm not saying he won't get to that level but he isn't there yet and anyone who says he is are just delusional.

Dude, he played last season at the wing. This is the worst thing I've ever seen anyone argue on this website. Everyone participating in the hotstove considers him a winger. He's a winger.
- james_tanner1

I dont agree with that at all.

So if all the Devils' centers get injured and Hall is forced to play Center next season does that make him a centerman?

Pavel Zacha grew up playing C, was drafted as a C but played LW because he either didnt cut it or was needed on LW. But everyone still thinks of him as plying C if given the chance.

There is a reason why people ask young NHL players/and at draft time, "Where do you feel more comfortable playing? or "What position do you consider yourself"

I played hockey over 20 yrs an am a forward, but if the team I played on needed a D I played D. But I still am a forward.

This may be the dumbest argument of all time for this site. No Voracek love, eh?

I like the Hotstoves because they really generate a lot of discussion from the diversity of opinions here. Just to put my two cents in the mix i'm gonna go with :

Hall
Kucherov
Ovechkin
Panarin
Marchand

Discuss.
- Ales_Nevsky

That's basically the same as what the bloggers' had in their lists...

what's the point in posting a top 5 list when you include a player who is clearly nowhere near the top 5?

you make idiotic claims like this ALL THE TIME.....and it's basically the reason you have zero credibility
- sensarmy_11

I disagree with Tanner a lot, but in the case he did clearly state that he was being biased and that Marner isn't there yet. I mean you can disagree but to say he's ignorant here or to get upset seems a bit much. These rankings don't even mean anything, it's just killing time until training camp starts.

I dont agree with that at all.

So if all the Devils' centers get injured and Hall is forced to play Center next season does that make him a centerman?

Pavel Zacha grew up playing C, was drafted as a C but played LW because he either didnt cut it or was needed on LW. But everyone still thinks of him as plying C if given the chance.

There is a reason why people ask young NHL players/and at draft time, "Where do you feel more comfortable playing? or "What position do you consider yourself"

I played hockey over 20 yrs an am a forward, but if the team I played on needed a D I played D. But I still am a forward.
- Leniwm1

He was moved to the wing therefore he is a winger and it was for an entire season so I don't see why this is an issue for you.

So how was he passed by Matthews that hasn't broke 70 points yet? I am with the majority of fans of hockey in saying that you are just dumb. Matthews is really good but he is not on the same level of Sid or McDavid. I'm not saying he won't get to that level but he isn't there yet and anyone who says he is are just delusional.
- Mino42

Last year, Matthews missed 25% of the season, but he scored goals at a higher rate than Ovechkin did the year he got 65. Matthews was third in the NHL in GAR/60 meaning that minute by minute, only Ovechkin and McDavid out produced him.

He's the best even-strength goal scorer in the NHL, and had he played the entire year and not been injured, he would have led the league in goals. He also scored at an 84 point pace. And his PP time / per game was something like 150th in the NHL.

Now, how you want to interpret the stats is up to you, and I'm not saying this is indisputable or anything, but saying that Matthews is currently better than Crosby is not even close to delusional and shouldn't even be controversial.


One more fun stat: in the last three years Matthews is 11th in total 5v5 goals, despite only playing in two of those year, and missing 25% of the games in one of the seasons he did play.

This may be the dumbest argument of all time for this site. No Voracek love, eh?
- arichardson22

Lost in the mix over the Giroux snub haha. Voracek is easily better than Marner, no knock on the kid we will see with time.