I have little issue with JO as well. He has improved his game a great deal since coming to the team and he has not hit his ceiling yet. He could be a more mobile Chara in a year or 2.
- dcoms77

Wow

So Dumo's defensive numbers aren't better now then when he was 24?
- Thorny87

Gimme a bit and I’ll post some stuff. I was looking at raw production but I’ll dive a bit deeper on lunch.

I have little issue with JO as well. He has improved his game a great deal since coming to the team and he has not hit his ceiling yet. He could be a more mobile Chara in a year or 2.
- dcoms77

This is (frank)ing comical. Hahahahahah

Wow
- Rinosaur

He is going to be better than Chara dude. Just wait.

Chara was almost 30 before he became Chara. It takes taller players longer to figure it out.
- dcoms77

Dudes been a ~40 point guy since he was 25 but sure. Go with that. And compare guys like Dumo and Scuderi to Hall of Famers too. Seems like a good comparison. Hahahahahah

He is going to be better than Chara dude. Just wait.
- Feds91Stammer

Look, we have to give him that chance just like giving JJ a chance. Come on... small sample size.

Look, we have to give him that chance just like giving JJ a chance. Come on... small sample size.
- Rinosaur

JJ is going to be better than Brian Leetch too. Just wait.

I just had a scary thought... what if they do indeed move Brass and believe in Sheahan and Cullen moving forward?

I feel like we have no real pulse on what management thinks about everyone.

JJ is going to be better than Brian Leetch too. Just wait.
- Feds91Stammer

Totally. Leetch didn't become good until he was like 47. He was totally propped up by a good Rangers team for the most part.

They're both problematic and I stated in an earlier post that in addition to a forward move they need an RD.

This team was never one with a d-core that you looked at and was like wow, that's a great defense. This team was built on the ability of its players to keep the puck on their sticks and transition well.

I think the problem is easier to address with forwards right now and needs to be done. If a true upgrade on defense can be had, then obviously jump on it. Making weird lateral moves are useless.
- Rinosaur

You cannot address a problem with the defense by adding more forwards. That doesn't make any sense. We have no problem with the forwards and I would argue, that toronto is possibly the only team with a better forward core, maybe Winnapeg. They need to only add a d-man, doesnt matter what side becasue outside of 8 and 58, they are all trash. They need to trade a forward for a D-man.

You cannot address a problem with the defense by adding more forwards. That doesn't make any sense. We have no problem with the forwards and I would argue, that toronto is possibly the only team with a better forward core, maybe Winnapeg. They need to only add a d-man, doesnt matter what side becasue outside of 8 and 58, they are all trash. They need to trade a forward for a D-man.
- joecool2931

Welcome to two hours ago, but ok, I will re-explain for those who don't like to read. I'm well aware in order to upgrade the defense you ideally want to do that by upgrading your dmen.

However, you can upgrade TEAM defense by adding forwards who are much stronger on the puck, better at zone exits and zone entries which improves the transition game.

MY POINT was that upgrading the forward group MAY BE more doable at this point than upgrading the dmen. It's nice to think about Paryako, Montour, etc..., but it's a much harder move to pull given the teams that will likely be offering more than the Pens can.

I also think the Pens need more potent depth scoring if they're going to compete with the likes of Tampa and Toronto, so adding a forward is just not just for defense.

So Dumo's defensive numbers aren't better now then when he was 24?
- Thorny87

Well his shot attempts are right around his career average, as are his goals against/60, scoring chances/60 and HDca/60.

He's actually seen a slight uptick in his attempts for, scoring attempts for, and hdcf/60 this season, I would except those numbers to regress just a hair and fall back to around his career average though.

His overall goal differential at 5v5 this season is similar to his first full season on the Pens, both being positive, whereas his last 2 seasons were both negative goal differentials.

I would actually say he slightly improved his ability to push the play and generate offense as opposed to improving his defensive ability. But I also believe it is marginal and not really a significant improvement (and when I say that, I mean like.. eye opening.. wow improvement.)

I'd say he's still trending on that same plateau.

I'd have to rummage around the interwebs to see if I can find his entry/exit data to compare.

I just had a scary thought... what if they do indeed move Brass and believe in Sheahan and Cullen moving forward?

I feel like we have no real pulse on what management thinks about everyone.
- Rinosaur

Some posters here barely have a pulse at all based on their opinions.

Some posters here barely have a pulse at all based on their opinions.
- Feds91Stammer

Very true.

When Oleksiak is your worst Dman on the roster, it’s cool. But when he’s your 4th best defensemen (maybe third depending on your Maatta stance), that’s when it’s a problem. It’s not just the Oleksiak acquisition I’m criticizing, it’s the summation of the build of all the defense.
- j.boyd919

I hate agreeing with J.boyd but youre completely right. He is willing to give extentsions/bonuses/promotions to wingers being carried by Malkin and Crosby ie Sheary/Rust/Hornquist. But refused to give Cole a raise. Even when the Cole Shultz line was the literally the best D-combo in the league for like a month(I think like november 16/17 season), Rutherfords only thought was, ship Cole off while his value is high.

You cannot address a problem with the defense by adding more forwards. That doesn't make any sense. We have no problem with the forwards and I would argue, that toronto is possibly the only team with a better forward core, maybe Winnapeg. They need to only add a d-man, doesnt matter what side becasue outside of 8 and 58, they are all trash. They need to trade a forward for a D-man.
- joecool2931

Add Tampa to that list too.

I hate agreeing with J.boyd but youre completely right. He is willing to give extentsions/bonuses/promotions to wingers being carried by Malkin and Crosby ie Sheary/Rust/Hornquist. But refused to give Cole a raise. Even when the Cole Shultz line was the literally the best D-combo in the league for like a month(I think like november 16/17 season), Rutherfords only thought was, ship Cole off while his value is high.
- joecool2931

lol thanks buddy.

I would argue Scuderi never peaked and was actually always bad.
- Feds91Stammer

Nah. He was pretty good from 29 to 32.

With all of this talk of 2nd pairing defenders turning into first-ballot HHOFers, do you guys think that Rikola becomes an average everyday Brian Leetch, or does he compare more readily to Nick Lidstrom?

Nah. He was pretty good from 29 to 32.
- MattStrat

I think "pretty good" is a good way to put it. He was never an integral part of driving the play, but he played his role and played it well. He was noticeable for the right reasons the first time around.

I think "pretty good" is a good way to put it. He was never an integral part of driving the play, but he played his role and played it well. He was noticeable for the right reasons the first time around.
- jmatchett383

Exactly. And I wouldn’t argue that. I’m not arguing that he wasn’t good or didn’t play well in his role. I just don’t think he “got better” as he got older. I think he always was what he was as a player. No changes to his game. That was my argument.

Exactly. And I wouldn’t argue that. I’m not arguing that he wasn’t good or didn’t play well in his role. I just don’t think he “got better” as he got older. I think he always was what he was as a player. No changes to his game. That was my argument.
- j.boyd919

I think "pretty good" is a good way to put it. He was never an integral part of driving the play, but he played his role and played it well. He was noticeable for the right reasons the first time around.
- jmatchett383

Right so...if he got better in those years, his overall play rose and then fell off, isnt that peaking? hahah

- MattStrat

What evidence do you have that says otherwise?

Fearless is fine, but you need hockey ability as well and he has none at the professional level. I really hate to bring up Sprong, but I'm (frank)in baffled at the level of slack ZAR gets. If ZAR got the Sprong treatment he would have been out of the lineup ages ago.

ZAR is OK on the PK. He's far from very good IMO. Positionally yeah, he's fine on the PK, but I've seen him struggle more than a couple of times in clearing the puck out. If he didn't ever have to pass or shoot he'd be awesome.
- Rinosaur

From 3 pages back...I'll eventually catch up. I like what I've seen in ZAR. I think that there's upside there and feel like he'll eventually be a consistent depth scorer.