Well the difference here is that Phil is going to get 1PP time because he is an elite PP producer. Sprong would never get that PP time in Pittsburgh because Kessel is the right handed shot on that half wall.

While I definitely don't believe Sprong was put in a position to succeed here, I also don't think we can REALLY compare Kessel and Sprong as players even though they are/were given that same label (lazy defensively, liability in their own zone, etc. etc.) but I can see making those comparisons and understand why.
- j.boyd919

Yeah I'm not saying Sprong is near the player Phil is. Just pointing out how this idea that lazy/defensively irresponsible and one dimensional scorers is a terrible way to make personnel decisions.

I have nothing against Pettersson. Of course if he gets a 2m plus deal I'll be pissed. But Sprong never got a fair shake. His value was shot to poop before he got sent packing

I'm not sure what you're looking at 12/19 against the Caps. Cullen and Wilson went 100%.

12/17 against the ducks Wilson and Grant went 100%
- Rinosaur

Cullen and Wilson did it without Grant on the ice during 12/19

Wilson and Grant did it without Cullen on the ice during 12/17

I believe is what the data is saying.

Yeah I'm not saying Sprong is near the player Phil is. Just pointing out how this idea that lazy/defensively irresponsible and one dimensional scorers is a terrible way to make personnel decisions.

I have nothing against Pettersson. Of course if he gets a 2m plus deal I'll be pissed. But Sprong never got a fair shake. His value was shot to poop before he got sent packing
- DeflatedPucks

Oh I know, i definitely agree with you and I knew where you were coming from.

Fine lets ignore the PP, and look at EVS.

Here is a player.
In 2014-2015, he was on the ice for 48 GF, 82 GA
In 2010-2011, he was on the ice for 51 GF, 71 GA
In 2006-2007, he was on the ice for 31 GF, 43 GA
In 2011-2012, he was on the ice for 74 GF, 84 GA

That player is Phil fatass kessel
- DeflatedPucks

Are you cherry picking Kessels worst years on a terrible Leafs team?

Yeah I'm not saying Sprong is near the player Phil is. Just pointing out how this idea that lazy/defensively irresponsible and one dimensional scorers is a terrible way to make personnel decisions.

I have nothing against Pettersson. Of course if he gets a 2m plus deal I'll be pissed. But Sprong never got a fair shake. His value was shot to poop before he got sent packing
- DeflatedPucks

They didn't sell high on Sprong, but they didn't sell low either

They moved him at the right time before his value bottomed out like Pouliot

The Pens didn't do Pouliot wrong (as some like RW tend try to show) He's proving to be the terrible 1 dimensional player he was when he was here, only there its a terrible player for a bad team

Are you cherry picking Kessels worst years on a terrible Leafs team?
- RoloTahmasee

Obviously he is

Fine lets ignore the PP, and look at EVS.

Here is a player.
In 2014-2015, he was on the ice for 48 GF, 82 GA
In 2010-2011, he was on the ice for 51 GF, 71 GA
In 2006-2007, he was on the ice for 31 GF, 43 GA
In 2011-2012, he was on the ice for 74 GF, 84 GA

That player is Phil fatass kessel
- DeflatedPucks

Kessels 4 year sample size in Pittsburgh has him as a + player, positive possession metrics and an elite PP scorer..., same goes for the 2 years in Boston

Toronto was an all around terrible team, but despite playing with guys like Bozak as his primary center, his possession metrics were positive relative to his teams

Try again

Are you cherry picking Kessels worst years on a terrible Leafs team?
- RoloTahmasee

I mean, Sprong is on a terrible Ducks team, so it is accurate to compare him to kessel on a bad leafs team.

I was hoping Sprong got more of a chance in the top 6, but having a young, reliable 3rd pairing defender at a cheap price has been a huge necessity for the pens. Now if JJs salary could go away, that’d be a nice addition by subtraction

Are you cherry picking Kessels worst years on a terrible Leafs team?
- RoloTahmasee

It’s actually a fair comparison if you’re comparing the teams they were on. The Ducks are just as awful as the Leafs were.

I mean, Sprong is on a terrible Ducks team, so it is accurate to compare him to kessel on a bad leafs team.

I was hoping Sprong got more of a chance in the top 6, but having a young, reliable 3rd pairing defender at a cheap price has been a huge necessity for the pens. Now if JJs salary could go away, that’d be a nice addition by subtraction
- drummer829

But Sprongs metrics are negative to the already terrible metrics on the terrible Ducks team

So, he is actually worse (despite all his rah rah talent) than the rest his teammates or linemates for that matter

Loosly put, he was a Terrible player on a Good Penguins team, now he's a Terrible player on a Terrible Ducks team

It’s actually a fair comparison if you’re comparing the teams they were on. The Ducks are just as awful as the Leafs were.
- j.boyd919

Leafs were a bad team, but Kessels metrics were a net positive to the rest of his teammates. Basically, The Leafs were an ok team when Kessel was on the ice, a dumpster fire when he wasn't

Sprongs metrics are negative to his teammates despite what team or what line he has been on. The team is always better when he's NOT on the ice. Perhaps less scoring, but also fewer goals and/or scoring chances against

Can we talk about the 4th line last night?

This is no longer an anomaly. The 4th line is far better with Grant and Wilson. If you had to guess, could you tell me which line had the best HDCF%? Well, it was the fourth line at 100%.

Grant, Wilson and Cullen for HDCF at 6,4, and 7 respectively. I promise I'm not using this to beat my Anti-ZAR drum. This is just to show how good that specific line is together.

Grant and Wilson were also both over 60% in CF% with Cullen under 60%, but over 50%.

KEEP THIS LINE TOGETHER.
- Rinosaur

Yeah, they looked good.. but let’s keep the context in place. This was against Anaheim which is an awful possession team. It’s definitely worth noting, not worth engraving

Here's what a lot of "Hockey People" (LOL) like Ryan Wilson fail to understand

Sure, a guy like Sprong can get you 30 goals, (when you gift him the best linemates and PP time) but when he's on the ice for 40 against, he's a net negative as a player

This kind of player is useful if you find yourself down 5-2, or needing a goal late in a game because you have nothing to lose. Over a larger sample size (favorite RW expression), He will lose you more games than he will win you.

Replace him with a player who only scores 15, but for arguments sake, is on the ice for 15 against - This player is less flashy, probably cheaper (way cheaper) and you can trust a player like this in all situations

Sprong drags down his linemates, Sure he'll score some goals, but his linemates continue to have to make up for his defensive deficiencies

32 games in, 6 goals scored (2 goals on PP), -13 in 5v5 play with only 4 EV goals to his credit, 65% offensive zone starts

Bad Player
- RoloTahmasee

I’m not saying this is a bad take, but the timing isn’t in your favor. This whole team in general (outside of nice surprises like Kase) has been pretty brutal, hence the 10 game skid despite having one of the better goalies in the league

I’m not saying this is a bad take, but the timing isn’t in your favor. This whole team in general (outside of nice surprises like Kase) has been pretty brutal, hence the 10 game skid despite having one of the better goalies in the league
- WSCTeton17

They’ve done it against much better teams

The results and Sully's willingness to sit a player on his a$$ when he's not performing seem tangibly different

Every coach has a tagline, but I can't figure out what Disco did here besides talk.... I never saw a guy who could evaluate talent or make an in game adjustment to save his life. He won his Cup with Therriens team

Sully came in here, took over Johnstons team, immediately infused the team with players he identified as coach in Willkes Barrie (Rust, Sheary, Guentzel, Murray, etc) got the team playing a 200' game and won back to back cups

So, they might "sound" the same, but I'll take Sully 100 times out of 100
- RoloTahmasee

Ok, not exactly. Immediately? He started 0-4. Crosby also had an awful start to the season and was already rebounding and I believe the team was showing signs of life and won their last game before the change. Aaaaand GMJR then worked his magic and brought in some players. Sully deserves credit, but how you described it wasn’t really how it happened

They’ve done it against much better teams
- Rinosaur

When?

When?
- WSCTeton17

I listed it earlier

I listed it earlier
- Rinosaur

So 12/17 and 12/19. 12/17 being the Ducks once again. I believe you said ‘teams’ plural, as in more than one

So 12/17 and 12/19. 12/17 being the Ducks once again. I believe you said ‘teams’ plural, as in more than one
- WSCTeton17

Dude, I’m not here to list them all out. Go to naturalstatrick

Dude, I’m not here to list them all out. Go to naturalstatrick
- Rinosaur

And I didn’t come here to argue your point for you. You said they’ve done it against better teams and you’ve illustrated exactly 1 time against a different team

Personally, unless we replace Brass I’d rather see Sheahan at 4C and give Wilson a shot on the 3rd line

They didn't sell high on Sprong, but they didn't sell low either

They moved him at the right time before his value bottomed out like Pouliot

The Pens didn't do Pouliot wrong (as some like RW tend try to show) He's proving to be the terrible 1 dimensional player he was when he was here, only there its a terrible player for a bad team
- RoloTahmasee

I have no problem with the Pens moving on from some players and certainly don't agree with RW on everything. I didn't always complain when some of the followings guy got the axe. But can we not see something wrong with the fair shake and mike sullivan not being picture perfect (just like disco daniel).

Player. Games/TOI. Age when traded. Most common linemates in year traded at EVS.

Bennett. Got 129 games. 1616min TOI. Traded at age 24. Kunitz, Bonino, Crosby.
Despres. Got 144 games. 2290min TOI. Traded at age 23. Scuderi, Letang, Ehrhoff
Pouliot. Got 67 games. 1101min TOI. Traded at age 23. Duomolin, Maatta, Schultz.

Sprong. Got 63 games. 406min TOI. Traded at 21. Sheahan, Cullen, Rust, Grant.

(frank)ing nhl. puts MTL-COL as the free game.

Are you cherry picking Kessels worst years on a terrible Leafs team?
- RoloTahmasee

This Ducks team is pretty (frank)ing terrible.

Kessels 4 year sample size in Pittsburgh has him as a + player, positive possession metrics and an elite PP scorer..., same goes for the 2 years in Boston

Toronto was an all around terrible team, but despite playing with guys like Bozak as his primary center, his possession metrics were positive relative to his teams

Try again
- RoloTahmasee

Listen, no one saying Sprong is this great player, but there's no such thing as an un-usesful 20-30 goal scorer if the rest of the team around him is sound enough to cover his deficiencies. Same thing with a dude like Hagelin who's all around game is great but is literally incapable of scoring. You can stand to have him in your top 6 when you've also got dudes like Evgeni Malkin and Phil Kessel to shoulder the scoring burden. Not every guy is gonna be this perfect two way player.

I don't blame Ruth here. The trade was fine in so far that we got a competent role player back for a dude that was getting scratched on the reg. But in a perfect world Sprong would have been given a longer leash before dumping him for Marcus Pettersson.

I have no problem with the Pens moving on from some players and certainly don't agree with RW on everything. I didn't always complain when some of the followings guy got the axe. But can we not see something wrong with the fair shake and mike sullivan not being picture perfect (just like disco daniel).

Player. Games/TOI. Age when traded. Most common linemates in year traded at EVS.

Bennett. Got 129 games. 1616min TOI. Traded at age 24. Kunitz, Bonino, Crosby.
Despres. Got 144 games. 2290min TOI. Traded at age 23. Scuderi, Letang, Ehrhoff
Pouliot. Got 67 games. 1101min TOI. Traded at age 23. Duomolin, Maatta, Schultz.

Sprong. Got 63 games. 406min TOI. Traded at 21. Sheahan, Cullen, Rust, Grant.
- DeflatedPucks

I love the added context. I think Sprong just doesn’t fit while we have Phil. I think in the long run Phil and Sid do better with possession spark plugs on their wings and Sprong doesn’t fit that mold. He’s not a strong possession player period so I don’t think he works for 3 scoring lines unless you already have a good defensive center that he gets with.

The Depres injuries were unfortunate after he left Pitt, but it is what it is. Maybe he would’ve stuck in Anaheim and made an impact, more likely he would’ve been dealt. Bennett and Pouliot didn’t have large impacts for their new teams. Pouliot had his moments in Vancouver, and by that I mean both good and bad moments.

He wasn’t a high draft pick, but I thought Scott Wilson could’ve settled in as a 30 point guy somewhere. I wonder sometimes if Conor Sheary is going to dwindle away or not