I regularly read the Buffalo blog. Botts has taken some hits for some of his trades. Kane and Oreilly haven't exactly worked out. So much is undetermined because they still need to turn those picks into players. Most people wanted to hand him GM of the year after their big win streak. Now....not so much.
- madmike71

Kane and O'Reilly were on the Sabers a full two years before Botts got there.

I mean, it is close. I can put forth a pretty good argument using statistical data. You say it’s not but provide zero factual evidence. So there’s that. I do believe that Kessel at 6.8m is better value than Stone at 9.5mil+. And I’m a big fan of Stone as a player.
- j.boyd919

Going forward it's a no-brainer considering age. A player like Stone might extend the window. I'm sure it won't happen. Everybody is going to want him. He'll get an overpay.....so that's where you might be correct with the value. If it's only 2.7mil, I'll take Stone in a minute.

Kane and O'Reilly were on the Sabers a full two years before Botts got there.
- Victoro311

Who did Botts get when he traded them?

I mean, it is close. I can put forth a pretty good argument using statistical data. You say it’s not but provide zero factual evidence. So there’s that. I do believe that Kessel at 6.8m is better value than Stone at 9.5mil+. And I’m a big fan of Stone as a player.
- j.boyd919

He is putting up better numbers than Kessel on the worst team in the league. He doesn't hand the puck over at will to avoid contact (that is a fact). He is hitting his prime while Kessel looks to be fading. He scores more at even strength. Your turn.

Who did Botts get when he traded them?
- madmike71

Kane got a 1st, a 4th, and a prospect.

O'Reilly got a 1st, a 2nd, Sobotka, Berglund, and a prospect (Tage Thompson)

I mean, it is close. I can put forth a pretty good argument using statistical data. You say it’s not but provide zero factual evidence. So there’s that. I do believe that Kessel at 6.8m is better value than Stone at 9.5mil+. And I’m a big fan of Stone as a player.
- j.boyd919

I do see what you are saying for sure. Especially if you have to give up a lot of extras. I honestly think Stone is a top 25 forward in the league though. Kind of reminds me of Bergeron obviously different position though. With Stone most likely making 9 next year and kessel 6.8 Id take Stone 100%. With Kessel declining and Stone seems to be at his peak. Paired with Malkin and on the top pens PP I think he would be at another level.

Huge stretch here to make both happen but
Kessel to the preds for tolvanen and (fabbro OR allard)
Stone (resigned for 8 @ 8.7M) to the pens for a 1st, tolvanen, Rikkola AND/OR ZAR

Kane got a 1st, a 4th, and a prospect.

O'Reilly got a 1st, a 2nd, Sobotka, Berglund, and a prospect (Tage Thompson)
- Victoro311

That's what I'm getting at. He got a couple of good lottery tickets but nothing that's going to push them into the playoffs in the next few years. If you put O'reilly and Kane on the Sabres this year, I bet they make the playoffs.

Skinner was a stone cold steal, but clearly not enough to get them into the playoffs. He's yet to sign either.

He is putting up better numbers than Kessel on the worst team in the league. He doesn't hand the puck over at will to avoid contact (that is a fact). He is hitting his prime while Kessel looks to be fading. He scores more at even strength. Your turn.
- MacPatty

Stone is shooting at 20% whereas his career average is 14%. His goal totals are likely to come down. He is 27, entering the tail end of his prime as forwards prime years are generally 22-27 so you’re going to pay an extra 2.7mil for a player that is going to start entering his decline.

Kessel over the last 3 seasons has put up 224 points whereas Stone has put up 178. This season Stone is tied with Kessel, with two less games. I don’t find it worth paying 2.7m for the same production. You claim that Stone is better at two-way hockey which maybe he is, but over the last 3 seasons Stones 5v5 goal differential is +38 and Kessel’s is +15. On the PP Kessel is a +119, Stone is a +63. While Stones 5v5 goal differential is better than Kessels (and I do value 5v5 production/stats more than special teams) Kessel’s PP production is nearly 60 goals more than Stones. I believe that Kessel net gain (which is positive) at 6.8m is a much better value than Stones net gain (which is also positive) then Stones 9.5m+. Mostly because if you are looking for two way play, you can literally sign a middle six forward to play with Kessel for 2.7+ and add that players production to Kessel.

Kessel @6.8m + middle6 @2.7m > Stone @ 9.5m+

That's what I'm getting at. He got a couple of good lottery tickets but nothing that's going to push them into the playoffs in the next few years. If you put O'reilly and Kane on the Sabres this year, I bet they make the playoffs.

Skinner was a stone cold steal, but clearly not enough to get them into the playoffs. He's yet to sign either.
- madmike71

Skinner is a much better player than Kane. If moving Kane off the books is part of what made acquiring Skinner possible then it was a great move.

That's what I'm getting at. He got a couple of good lottery tickets but nothing that's going to push them into the playoffs in the next few years. If you put O'reilly and Kane on the Sabres this year, I bet they make the playoffs.

Skinner was a stone cold steal, but clearly not enough to get them into the playoffs. He's yet to sign either.
- madmike71

I mean didn’t both players basically demand a trade?

I mean didn’t both players basically demand a trade?
- Victoro311

Kane was a UFA to be and ROR wanted out.

Also they missed the playoffs with ROR and Kane so its a weird argument.

Kane was a UFA to be and ROR wanted out.

Also they missed the playoffs with ROR and Kane so its a weird argument.
- Feds91Stammer

The argument is whether Botteril was responsible for talent evaluation and not Rutherford. I'm asking for proof because there's no way of knowing. All we can judge is what Botts has done with Buffalo and the overwhelming majority is yet to be proven.

The argument is whether Botteril was responsible for talent evaluation and not Rutherford. I'm asking for proof because there's no way of knowing. All we can judge is what Botts has done with Buffalo and the overwhelming majority is yet to be proved.
- madmike71

http://www.nhltradetracke...by_GM/Jason_Botterill/290

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Jason_Botterill/290
- Feds91Stammer

Yes. I know the deals. He stole Skinner. The rest is either wait and see or meh. I'm not saying Rutherford has had a good couple of years. Just saying I'm not labeling Botts the "real genius" behind JR.

Stone is shooting at 20% whereas his career average is 14%. His goal totals are likely to come down. He is 27, entering the tail end of his prime as forwards prime years are generally 22-27 so you’re going to pay an extra 2.7mil for a player that is going to start entering his decline.

Kessel over the last 3 seasons has put up 224 points whereas Stone has put up 178. This season Stone is tied with Kessel, with two less games. I don’t find it worth paying 2.7m for the same production. You claim that Stone is better at two-way hockey which maybe he is, but over the last 3 seasons Stones 5v5 goal differential is +38 and Kessel’s is +15. On the PP Kessel is a +119, Stone is a +63. While Stones 5v5 goal differential is better than Kessels (and I do value 5v5 production/stats more than special teams) Kessel’s PP production is nearly 60 goals more than Stones. I believe that Kessel net gain (which is positive) at 6.8m is a much better value than Stones net gain (which is also positive) then Stones 9.5m+. Mostly because if you are looking for two way play, you can literally sign a middle six forward to play with Kessel for 2.7+ and add that players production to Kessel.

Kessel @6.8m + middle6 @2.7m > Stone @ 9.5m+
- j.boyd919

Stone is 26. He is entering, not exiting prime. Kessel was putting up .75ppg before joining the Pens... Stone is already better, not to mention the spike you would see with him on Sid or Geno's wing. Stones shooting percent has been better than Kessels every single season... Not a fluke. Do you really think Stones PP scoring wouldn't go through the roof slotting in Kessels spot on the PP?

Stone plus the picks and prospects you would get far outweigh Kessel and a middle 6 forward.

So just about everything you wrote there is wrong.

Yes. I know the deals. He stole Skinner. The rest is either wait and see or meh. I'm not saying Rutherford has had a good couple of years. Just saying I'm not labeling Botts the "real genus" behind JR.
- madmike71

Well so far Botts hasn't made UFA blunders.

Well so far Botts hasn't made UFA blunders.
- Feds91Stammer

He will. They all do.

I think CBJ and the Caps making additions combined with the tire fire game against the Sharks may push GMJR to get more aggressive.

I also think this damn outdoor game would prevent any such move being made. They can't move someone out right before the big outdoor game when the team is already in Philly. I mean...they could...but that just doesnt seem like a Penguins type of thing to do. But maybe sunday or monday.

Stone is 26. He is entering, not exiting prime. Kessel was putting up .75ppg before joining the Pens... Stone is already better, not to mention the spike you would see with him on Sid or Geno's wing. Stones shooting percent has been better than Kessels every single season... Not a fluke. Do you really think Stones PP scoring wouldn't go through the roof slotting in Kessels spot on the PP?

Stone plus the picks and prospects you would get far outweigh Kessel and a middle 6 forward.

So just about everything you wrote there is wrong.
- MacPatty

Forwards prime is 22-27. Stone will be 27 at the start of his new contract. Thus the tail end of his prime. Yes he will still be in his prime but it will be the tail end.




I get the whole “imagine the spike they would get playing with Sid and Geno” thing that used to be relevant but that’s not really relevant that much anymore. While they are still great top tier hockey players, they are not putting up the 100 point seasons that they used to when they would prop other lowly players up (not that Stone is lowly.) but let’s not act like that’s still this huge case that they’re going to elevate players.

Kessel has two seasons at 80 points prior to coming to Pittsburgh. Stone has never hit 80 points in a season. Absolutely nothing I said was wrong. Nice try though. Valiant effort. I’ll give ya that though.

I think CBJ and the Caps making additions combined with the tire fire game against the Sharks may push GMJR to get more aggressive.

I also think this damn outdoor game would prevent any such move being made. They can't move someone out right before the big outdoor game when the team is already in Philly. I mean...they could...but that just doesnt seem like a Penguins type of thing to do. But maybe sunday or monday.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Definitely.... We're not keep the 1st rounder this year. F outdoor games.

Definitely.... We're not keep the 1st rounder this year. F outdoor games.
- madmike71

It’s a real shame cus the I used to really like the Winter Classic. But now that there’s so many out door games I just can’t be bothered to give a damn.

Patriots do that to their depth and complimentary players. They don't do that to their high end players. They've kept Brady beyond the point that it was technically smart to, they've held onto Gronk despite his injury problems, they've held onto Edelman, they held onto Welker until he broke down, Hightower's been there for quite a while, Bruschi was a straight up career Pat.

The Pats don't get rid of stars while they're still producing at a star caliber level. Only core players that really comes to mind that the Pats let go of in their prime were Aquib Talib, and Dion Branch. Talib walked for more money than the Pats could afford and Branch held out and forced a trade. Would hardly call either situation "selling high".
- Victoro311

They tried to trade Gronk, he threatened to retire
They traded Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones as they led the team in sacks at that seasons trade deadline
Richard Semour
Brandin Cooks
Dumped Randy Moss before his value completely plummeted
Lots of others I just can't remember

This isn't a team that has had a ton of *star players, and the NFL is more about managing the salary cap than player assets, but it can't be argued that the Patriots move on early from guys rether then keep them on the decline. Thats where we are with Kessel

The Penguins are not on the *upswing*, and there is nothing in WBS, or in the minors that suggests help is coming over the horizon

It’s a real shame cus the I used to really like the Winter Classic. But now that there’s so many out door games I just can’t be bothered to give a damn.
- Victoro311

I still have a soft spot for the Winter Classic. I usually watch it. Don't care about the rest of them.....maybe the one in Canada.

I'm just not a fan of the usually sh!tty ice. Tomorrow looks like it could be really bad.

Weird how you want to pay more for a player who offers the same production. That seems counter-intuitive for improving a hockey team when you can just take that extra 2.7m and find yourself a respectable middle six forward to add to Kessel’s Stone equivalent production.
- j.boyd919

I want the assets I'd get for Kessel and have them playing for 3 years on ELC contracts

Kinda like, Sheary, Rust, and Guentzel were

If I have to pay 3 million extra for a younger, better 2 way player who puts up the same production AND I get the young assets, I'm in

2.7 million gets you a Riley Sheahan, or a lesser Tanner Pearson

Adam Gretz is pretty bang on with the recent happenings around the team

https://www.pensburgh.com...nguins-and-the-contenders