This is dense as you and I both know I was referencing numbers beyond just goals at all game states, especially the powerplay, where I mentioned he has become somewhat of a specialist.
- Sabresfan-365

Why worry about numbers beyond just goals at all game states.

The guy is - and gets paid to be - a one dimensional goal scorer, not a complete hockey player. "Dense" right back at you.

Why worry about numbers beyond just goals at all game states.

The guy is - and gets paid to be - a one dimensional goal scorer, not a complete hockey player. "Dense" right back at you.
- Der Kaiser

Because the ability to score a ton while in a game state that gives you all kinds of time and space is not nearly worth the contract his agent will no doubt ask for.

He'd have to score on every other power play to offset how useless hes been at even strength.

This isn’t directed at you, but this is literally an argument that’s been on constant repeat for 5 years on here.

It’s the same examples each way
- sbroads24

Exactly, it shows there's no one way to skin a cat.

Until a team does it by sucking under the new 3 draw lottery, not Toronto because they only had one and won, but anyone else you can't with a straight face say tanking is the way to go. The math simply doesn't work.

Exactly, it shows there's no one way to skin a cat.

Until a team does it by sucking under the new 3 draw lottery, not Toronto because they only had one and won, but anyone else you can't with a straight face say tanking is the way to go. The math simply doesn't work.
- Wetbandit1

They did tank in 2015 like us as well. They were just roughly 25 games late.

Edit: I know 2015 wasn't three team lottery, but the comparison is for/to BUF

Because the ability to score a ton while in a game state that gives you all kinds of time and space is not nearly worth the contract his agent will no doubt ask for.

He'd have to score on every other power play to offset how useless hes been at even strength.
- Sabresfan-365

When the scoreboard doesn't count the goals that are scored while on special teams, then it will be OK to stop valuing them.

Until then, the effort to disregard them is just silly.

I was thinking mostly trade, either the summer or at the deadline. But more than anything else, those guys bring almost nothing to the team. Maybe shed is the wrong word, but if they can be flipped into players that bring even a little more to the table that could go a long way.

Mentioned it before but it's the summer that Botts got a lot of credit for in Pitt. Flipping dead weight for players who individually may not be much to look at, but add the moves up and it helps a lot.
- Sabresfan-365

OK, agree that he'll get away from some of the 1 year deals and RFA's one way or another. His skill in doing that and replacing them will be interesting to watch. I don't think there's enough internal talent hitting the NHL next year or that high price UFA's are the answer.

When the scoreboard doesn't count the goals that are scored while on special teams, then it will be OK to stop valuing them.

Until then, the effort to disregard them is just silly.
- Der Kaiser

Im not disregarding them, im saying they aren't enough

He hurt his team, badly, at 5v5 this year. The amount he'd have to score on the PP, having been as bad as he was at 5v5, is ridiculously high. He'd have to give the team an NHL record breaking PP.

OK, agree that he'll get away from some of the 1 year deals and RFA's one way or another. His skill in doing that and replacing them will be interesting to watch. I don't think there's enough internal talent hitting the NHL next year or that high price UFA's are the answer.
- Lunaion

Agreed, it's what made me think of those moves. Although I think the UFA play may change if Skinner walks. I dont think it should, but the pressure will be on.

Why worry about numbers beyond just goals at all game states.

The guy is - and gets paid to be - a one dimensional goal scorer, not a complete hockey player. "Dense" right back at you.
- Der Kaiser

Switch Laine’s name with Skinner and the same applies.

Agreed, it's what made me think of those moves. Although I think the UFA play may change if Skinner walks. I dont think it should, but the pressure will be on.
- Sabresfan-365

An expensive UFA mistake to save face for losing Skinner is a fear of mine too. I'd rather overpay Skinner than almost anyone else.

Switch Laine’s name with Skinner and the same applies.
- Pegullaville

Skinner had 27 goals at 5v5, 6th in the NHL


Laine had 13

He was a negative impact player at 5v5, closer to Tage Thompson than Conor Sheary in terms of shot rates.

An expensive UFA mistake to save face for losing Skinner is a fear of mine too. I'd rather overpay Skinner than almost anyone else.
- Lunaion

I think 89 mentioned a while back but Im half convinced a massive play for Duchene is plan B. Im hoping that one doesn't pan out

Im not disregarding them, im saying they aren't enough

He hurt his team, badly, at 5v5 this year. The amount he'd have to score on the PP, having been as bad as he was at 5v5, is ridiculously high. He'd have to give the team an NHL record breaking PP.
- Sabresfan-365

What Laine's contract ought to be is a different question.

The league alwasy has a still does have guys who make their living as one dimensional goal scorers. PKane, Stamkos, Ovi (unitl recently), Sedin, St. Louis, Kessel. We could keep going.

What Laine's contract ought to be is a different question.

The league alwasy has a still does have guys who make their living as one dimensional goal scorers. PKane, Stamkos, Ovi (unitl recently), Sedin, St. Louis, Kessel. We could keep going.
- Der Kaiser

??

These guys all drive possession and generate chances at 5v5. Directly or indirectly making players around them better. Laine has done none of that this year. Except maybe kessel but i dont have the data from his prime years.

Skinner had 27 goals at 5v5, 6th in the NHL


Laine had 13

He was a negative impact player at 5v5, closer to Tage Thompson than Conor Sheary in terms of shot rates.
- Sabresfan-365

Skinner had 8 more goals any way you slice it. Both leave a lot to be desired defensively and neither have much playmaking skills. We wonder why Eichel didn’t score many goals but it’s due to the fact that every offensive possession was him feeding Skinner and Skinner shooting from everywhere. How many times can we honestly say Skinner set up Eichel on a clean pass ?

What Laine's contract ought to be is a different question.

The league alwasy has a still does have guys who make their living as one dimensional goal scorers. PKane, Stamkos, Ovi (unitl recently), Sedin, St. Louis, Kessel. We could keep going.
- Der Kaiser

Kessel has recorded many 80+ point seasons. I’d say Kane is as good of a play maker as he is a goal scorer. Skinner scores 38 goals and still hardly cracked 60 points.

Skinner had 8 more goals any way you slice it. Both leave a lot to be desired defensively and neither have much playmaking skills. We wonder why Eichel didn’t score many goals but it’s due to the fact that every offensive possession was him feeding Skinner and Skinner shooting from everywhere. How many times can we honestly say Skinner set up Eichel on a clean pass ?
- Pegullaville

As bad as Skinner is defensively, he was way better than what Laine was defensively this year.

Even when he's not scoring, the puck is going the right way when skinner is on the ice. The same has not been true of Laine in quite some time.

I think 89 mentioned a while back but Im half convinced a massive play for Duchene is plan B. Im hoping that one doesn't pan out
- Sabresfan-365

That's a risky plan B, for sure. I'm skeptical that we'd even be high on his list. Plans C,D,E, etc scare me too. Overpaying Kevin Hayes or Anders Lee on a long term deal is riskier than Okposo was.

That's a risky plan B, for sure. I'm skeptical that we'd even be high on his list. Plans C,D,E, etc scare me too. Overpaying Kevin Hayes or Anders Lee on a long term deal is riskier than Okposo was.
- Lunaion

Skinner's long term deal carries a high degree of risk too. I wish we were in on Niederreiter. That's the ideal play right now.

Just to be clear, that was me typing out loud mentioning Laine for the 7th.

Skinner's long term deal carries a high degree of risk too. I wish we were in on Niederreiter. That's the ideal play right now.
- Sabresfan-365

It does, and I have my reservations when it comes to Skinner, but he's the risk I'd take.

It does, and I have my reservations when it comes to Skinner, but he's the risk I'd take.
- Lunaion

Certainly better than any UFA options. Just a cursory look but so far I literally see nothing of interest. There's usually one or two buy low candidates but this year it's dry

Certainly better than any UFA options. Just a cursory look but so far I literally see nothing of interest. There's usually one or two buy low candidates but this year it's dry
- Sabresfan-365

Zuccarello and Nyquist interest me. Brandon Pirri for depth. Donskoi as well could be a top 9 piece for us. Nothing ground breaking but as long as we have a middle 6 that at least chips in this team should take major steps next year with further development of Eichel, Reinhart, Dahlin. Mittelstadt.

Zuccarello and Nyquist interest me. Brandon Pirri for depth. Donskoi as well could be a top 9 piece for us. Nothing ground breaking but as long as we have a middle 6 that at least chips in this team should take major steps next year with further development of Eichel, Reinhart, Dahlin. Mittelstadt.
- Pegullaville

Zuccarello won't come here.

They did tank in 2015 like us as well. They were just roughly 25 games late.

Edit: I know 2015 wasn't three team lottery, but the comparison is for/to BUF
- Sabresfan-365

It's tough, we are in uncharted territory, but so far we've seen it's not really worth it. Sure, the Sabres got lucky, but you can't rely on that and expect to get anywhere. Twice the best odds have won and twice the best odds have dropped to 4th.