For those of us that lived through the 80's ...amen.
- The Law

I don't understand this part of the conversation. Muzzin was clearly brought in to replace Gardiner. We're really talking about replacing Hainsey, which is a different role altogether. You're supported by Rielly, which is not necessarily a bad place for a Dermott or even a smart rookie. That being said, I, too, am aware of the brutality of the Toronto market if he falters.

Ideally an RHD would be good, but I don't see anyone offering us one for a reasonable price.

surely Sandin / Liljegren or both could get time next season.
but protected minutes like Babcock does with most of the young guys.

So your top 4 d-men in TOI will be Rielly Muzzin Dermott and Zaitsev, with the other guys getting less time.

The issue on D is who are going to be your 4 PK'ing D-men; Zaitsev and Muzzin and then Dermott and ?? or are we going to put Rielly on the PK?
Leafs need a 3rd pairing D-man that is good at penalty killing.

So it seems quite obvious that Leafs are looking for a 2nd/3rd pairing that knows how to kill penalties, ideally right handed.
- MaximusAurelius

we can find a bottom pairing RHD that can kill penalties. I think we need to bring in a d-man that can play with Rielly. Meaning, we would need to get 2 defensemen here.

For those of us that lived through the 80's ...amen.
- The Law

Those 80s teams didn't have marner, Matthews, Tavares, Rielly already in the lineup. Nor a coach that will likely get most of the criticism. This team isn't looking for saviors anymore.

If Marner signs for 9.5, Kap for 2.5, Johnsson for 2, and you trade Brown . . .

You end up with:

Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Moore-Kadri-Kapanen
Marleau-Gauthier-Petan

Rielly-Dermott
Muzzin-Zaitsev
Sandin-Rosen

Andersen
Sparks

Which totals $80.6m, unless I've made a mistake - leaving about $2.5m extra, before using Horton's IR. Which means there is room for improvement on top of what they have.
- Monkeypunk

I think this is pretty close. I'd add another 500k to both Kapanen and Johnsson (already turned down an offer of 2.1 per year). Also add 1.5 milly for a 13th fwd and a 7th dman.

As pissed as I was at nylander during these playoffs, fact is he is a player that's already at 22 capable of putting up 20 plus goals and 60 points. He has a lot of growing up to do sure, but will he get better....the evidence that he will far outweighs your opinion. I grant you that is he what this team needs going forward is a fair question. But the way you go on about how much he sucks is somewhat absurd.
- mykokes

I completely agree that Nylander is a 60-70point player, good on the PP - and does some other stuff ok.
Leafs have other players who put up more points (Matthews, Marner, Tavares) and have other needs to fill.
so Nylander's 'best quality' is not as good as some of the other players on the team, while he is not adding anything else to the team.

I don't understand this part of the conversation. Muzzin was clearly brought in to replace Gardiner. We're really talking about replacing Hainsey, which is a different role altogether. You're supported by Rielly, which is not necessarily a bad place for a Dermott or even a smart rookie. That being said, I, too, am aware of the brutality of the Toronto market if he falters.

Ideally an RHD would be good, but I don't see anyone offering us one for a reasonable price.
- Monkeypunk

His point that I was agreeing to was that giving a rookie too much responsibility was a recipe for disaster. I got no problem with Sandin getting bottom pairing time if he's ready. I agree Muzzin slid into Jake's minutes. Really it's Hainsey to replace/improve and they need to shore up that 3rd pairing.

we can find a bottom pairing RHD that can kill penalties. I think we need to bring in a d-man that can play with Rielly. Meaning, we would need to get 2 defensemen here.
- PatC80

I'm sure you, along with all of the rest of us, have very similar posts numerous times over the past 18 months.

I just don't know where you get fair value on an RHD.

the problem is the cap this coming Season. Keeping PM will force them to make some tough choices.

imo, things started when Shanny took over. Its been 5 years so far
- senstroll

I realize his cap is too high, it’s the way she goes. We’re not the only team.

Why not? Mccavoy, Carlo, and so many others before have done it. This isn't like schenn, telling you this kid is the real deal.

And if you really want to discuss gardiners icetime...how many minutes was he getting in the Bruins series?
- mykokes

To many.

I completely agree that Nylander is a 60-70point player, good on the PP - and does some other stuff ok.
Leafs have other players who put up more points (Matthews, Marner, Tavares) and have other needs to fill.
so Nylander's 'best quality' is not as good as some of the other players on the team, while he is not adding anything else to the team.
- MaximusAurelius

I counter that he is a useful weapon, but yes this team could be better if they get the right asset for him. I just don't want to see the leafs pull a chiarelli....or be like the flyers and acquire a luke schenn for him (jvr trade)

I think this is pretty close. I'd add another 500k to both Kapanen and Johnsson (already turned down an offer of 2.1 per year). Also add 1.5 milly for a 13th fwd and a 7th dman.
- The Law

So if we apply that logic, which I think is the flexible range, you end up at the cap - which can you skirt over by 10% until the start of the season, and then you can apply for Horton's LTIR to cover if we can find a reasonable RHD, or even an upgrade on Sparks.

The only way we end up in a real cap situationis if we can add someone of significant value on the back-end, which we don't do unless we give up someone of significant value from the front-end.

And if sandin struggles, there are like 4 other dmen to cycle through not named marincin a few of which have seen nhl time.

His point that I was agreeing to was that giving a rookie too much responsibility was a recipe for disaster. I got no problem with Sandin getting bottom pairing time if he's ready. I agree Muzzin slid into Jake's minutes. Really it's Hainsey to replace/improve and they need to shore up that 3rd pairing.
- The Law

It's a good point; I am not going to argue otherwise.

I was very impressed with Dermott until I watched him play against tougher opposition later in the year. He grew into it with more exposure, but initially he looked great against weaker opposition, and looked pretty susceptible against top line opposition.

Even someone like Dahlin was largely protected in Buffalo.

It's a good point; I am not going to argue otherwise.

I was very impressed with Dermott until I watched him play against tougher opposition later in the year. He grew into it with more exposure, but initially he looked great against weaker opposition, and looked pretty susceptible against top line opposition.

Even someone like Dahlin was largely protected in Buffalo.
- Monkeypunk

Dahlen at the start yes, but by game 40 he was logging some big min.

For those of us that lived through the 80's ...amen.
- The Law

And the 90s.

FFS, we ran Larry Murphy out of town.

And the 90s.

FFS, we ran Larry Murphy out of town.
- Atomic Wedgie

*anticipating running Matthews out of town*

So if we apply that logic, which I think is the flexible range, you end up at the cap - which can you skirt over by 10% until the start of the season, and then you can apply for Horton's LTIR to cover if we can find a reasonable RHD, or even an upgrade on Sparks.

The only way we end up in a real cap situationis if we can add someone of significant value on the back-end, which we don't do unless we give up someone of significant value from the front-end.
- Monkeypunk

That already assumed Horton's money was off the books.

IE.
Hym-Tav-Mar at 22,750,000
Joh-Mat-Nyl at 21,100,000
Mar-Kad-Kap at 13,750,000
Moo-Gau-Mik at 2,375,000
Your 6 Dmen at 16,050,000
Goalies at 5,750,000
Petan/Holl at 1,450,000
Kessel at 1,200,000

That's $84,400,000. Gotta cut another 1.5 milly and probably want to improve the defence as well.

so Nylander is a great player because you believe he is..
- MaximusAurelius

Yup.. that pretty much sums that up

I should add it also doesn't have to be nylander that's moved, it can also be K adri.
- mykokes

I wouldn't want move out kadri just yet.
We dont have much depth there.
Id move out a winger

Those 80s teams didn't have marner, Matthews, Tavares, Rielly already in the lineup. Nor a coach that will likely get most of the criticism. This team isn't looking for saviors anymore.
- mykokes

Just looking for heart

Lol

That already assumed Horton's money was off the books.

IE.
Hym-Tav-Mar at 22,750,000
Joh-Mat-Nyl at 21,100,000
Mar-Kad-Kap at 13,750,000
Moo-Gau-Mik at 2,375,000
Your 6 Dmen at 16,050,000
Goalies at 5,750,000
Petan/Holl at 1,450,000
Kessel at 1,200,000

That's $84,400,000. Gotta cut another 1.5 milly and probably want to improve the defence as well.
- The Law

Easy solution.. deal Nylander for a defenseman
Yes.. Hall won the heart in Nj.. I seriously doubt Nylander will.

That already assumed Horton's money was off the books.

IE.
Hym-Tav-Mar at 22,750,000
Joh-Mat-Nyl at 21,100,000
Mar-Kad-Kap at 13,750,000
Moo-Gau-Mik at 2,375,000
Your 6 Dmen at 16,050,000
Goalies at 5,750,000
Petan/Holl at 1,450,000
Kessel at 1,200,000

That's $84,400,000. Gotta cut another 1.5 milly and probably want to improve the defence as well.
- The Law

You're right. I didn't have the 1.2m retained for Kessel. They could do shifty cap movesby shuttling waiver ineligible guys back and forth to the Marlies during homestands. But really . . .they're better off shedding at least $1m out of there.

Those 80s teams didn't have marner, Matthews, Tavares, Rielly already in the lineup. Nor a coach that will likely get most of the criticism. This team isn't looking for saviors anymore.
- mykokes

You got me curious enough to look back. Just thought this was funny, but reminds me much more of our our team from ~5 years ago with a core of youngish former top 10 picks: lupul, kessel, phaneuf, schenn, kadri, komisarek (lol).

87-88 leafs
Ed Olcyzk round 1 #3 overall 1984 NHL Entry Draft
Al Iafrate round 1 #4 1984 NHL Entry Draft
Russ Courtnall round 1 #7 overall 1983 NHL Entry Draft
Vincent Damphousse round 1 #6 overall 1986 NHL Entry Draft
Wendel Clark round 1 #1 overall 1985 NHL Entry Draft
Luke Richardson round 1 #7 overall 1987 NHL Entry Draft

lol you want Ceci

oh wait, I didnt read further ... and Ristolainen

gross, and you hate willie ..wtf
- senstroll

I'd take Ristolainen for Willy. He played almost 30 minutes a game on a bad team. He plays PP and PK plus plays with an edge. He's a right shot with size. Play him 22 minutes a night and you'd have a top 4 defender on a contending team. Tampa was after him at the trade deadline, so someone must have seen something that they could use in a playoff series. Willy was a no-show for the Leafs, after getting paid.

And the 90s.

FFS, we ran Larry Murphy out of town.
- Atomic Wedgie

Jesus facking Christ.
Although he got points, he wasn't great defensively in Toronto. Made a lot of mistakes.
Cliff Fletcher traded him, not the fans. Fletcher made the horrible trade. To a Stanley cup contending team.