So if the Pens keep Kessel, he'll either end up playing on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line???

I have to say I agree.
- jmatchett383

The point I was trying to make is that if the Malkin/Kessel line doesn't work Sullivan would be forced into moving him off of the second line permanently. If the problem is only with Kessel then he would likely end up on the third line. If it is with Malkin or a matter of chemistry then he would end up on the first line with Crosby and Guentzel.

The point I was trying to make is that if the Malkin/Kessel line doesn't work Sullivan would be forced into moving him off of the second line permanently. If the problem is only with Kessel then he would likely end up on the third line. If it is with Malkin or a matter of chemistry then he would end up on the first line with Crosby and Guentzel.
- PghPens668771

And I agree.

So basically, he'll either end up on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line depending on his chemistry.

I dunno, I don't buy that poop. These guys are playing to win their entire life, I don't think the desire ever leaves. Maybe for a some that are trying to get paid, but I think the majority are about winning until they hang em up.
- j.boyd919

I think there’s something to it. Maybe not 100%, but I think it’s a factor. At the end of the day they’re still human and humans get complacent.

In the world of pro sports it can often come down to who wants it more and I don’t think it’s inconceivable that winning a few championships softens your desire compared to teams/players who haven’t had that success.

Can we put aside the Kessel squabble for a moment and enjoy the fact that JJ is on the block or at the very least available?

We can’t underestimate just how huge that really is after it seemed as if the Pens had such a positive view of JJ.

Out of all this commotion, we seem to have skipped one seriously huge positive: JJ is on the table. Who knows if this is only tied to Phil or regardless they will attempt to move him.
- Rinosaur

This is a very important development.

Can we put aside the Kessel squabble for a moment and enjoy the fact that JJ is on the block or at the very least available?

We can’t underestimate just how huge that really is after it seemed as if the Pens had such a positive view of JJ.
- Rinosaur

Would you rather have JJ, Frans Nielsen, or Danny Dekeyser?

This is a very important development.
- Tojo.

Yuge

Would you rather have JJ, Frans Nielsen, or Danny Dekeyser?
- jmatchett383

Nielsen. You made that question a little too easy. He’s grossly overpaid, but still useful.

I get this for sure. I am usually on the side of 5v5 numbers are more valuable BUT I think that Kessel's total value (elite PP value + his even strength value) outweighs Zucker's total value. I saw Sean Tierney's GAR/WAR post as well, definitely thought invoking for sure.
- j.boyd919

Right, you and I are more disagreeing about Kessel's ES value and I'm willing to take the drop-off from elite (Kessel) to good (Schultz) on the PP for the ES addition. But I know you're looking at all the angles.

Would like to get more value from Phil to really win the trade, but might not be possible.

If WPG would do the similar projected NSH trade, sending Phil and Schultz (who can be a stop-gap replacement for Trouba) for Trouba I would do it. The Pens would free up roughly $3M and could really go out and get a big fish in FA.
- Rinosaur

I wouldn't want to do that deal for Subban, so definitely not for Trouba.

I wouldn't want to do that deal for Subban, so definitely not for Trouba.
- MacPatty

Well I mean if YOU wouldn’t do it... lol

Right, you and I are more disagreeing about Kessel's ES value and I'm willing to take the drop-off from elite (Kessel) to good (Schultz) on the PP for the ES addition. But I know you're looking at all the angles.

Would like to get more value from Phil to really win the trade, but might not be possible.
- Tojo.

I think Kessels PP prowess is overstated. He is good in that spot no doubt, but he also gets to sit backdoor to Crosby and Malkin and has Hornquist in front of the net.

If the Zucker trade happens, Kessel is going to have his production plummet. Kessel will score 70ish points and so will Zucker.

Just look back to his days in Toronto. His numbers have peaked by virtue of playing with Malkin or on the 3rd line against the other teams weaker D pairings. He has been spoiled.

Well I mean if YOU wouldn’t do it... lol
- Rinosaur

I realize I'm the minority... I'm ok with that. I just think if Schultz gets you back a 1st plus, I don't want to send that and Kessel for a guy who is maybe a top 40 Dman and is looking to get overpaid.

I think Kessels PP prowess is overstated. He is good in that spot no doubt, but he also gets to sit backdoor to Crosby and Malkin and has Hornquist in front of the net.

If the Zucker trade happens, Kessel is going to have his production plummet. Kessel will score 70ish points and so will Zucker.

Just look back to his days in Toronto. His numbers have peaked by virtue of playing with Malkin or on the 3rd line against the other teams weaker D pairings. He has been spoiled.
- MacPatty

This is silly. You can say that about anyone not playing on the same team as Sid and Geno.

Also, I don’t think you actually looked up Phil’s PP stats. His assists definitely increased, but his PP goals are fairly consistent.

I realize I'm the minority... I'm ok with that. I just think if Schultz gets you back a 1st plus, I don't want to send that and Kessel for a guy who is maybe a top 40 Dman and is looking to get overpaid.
- MacPatty

Clearly more can be added to the deal, but as a basis? I’m definitely considering.

What am I looking for here?
- j.boyd919

the words. then when you locate them, read them.

The point I was trying to make is that if the Malkin/Kessel line doesn't work Sullivan would be forced into moving him off of the second line permanently. If the problem is only with Kessel then he would likely end up on the third line. If it is with Malkin or a matter of chemistry then he would end up on the first line with Crosby and Guentzel.
- PghPens668771

It's not a chemistry issue. Kessel's numbers apart from Malkin tank while Malkin's rise. The issue is Kessel holds Malkin down, and it's not likely to improve as they both age.

Malkin is 33. He needs more help on the wings. Moving Kessel and getting back a guy like Zucker, who is basically Hagelin with 25-30 goal hands, to me is about getting the best out of Malkin.

You could bump Kessel to third line to keep his PP ability, but who plays with Malkin then.

the words. then when you locate them, read them.
- Fountain-San

So... you post an article... for what? What was the point of your reply to me? There was nothing of significance in that article.

Right, you and I are more disagreeing about Kessel's ES value and I'm willing to take the drop-off from elite (Kessel) to good (Schultz) on the PP for the ES addition. But I know you're looking at all the angles.

Would like to get more value from Phil to really win the trade, but might not be possible.
- Tojo.

Do you really think that Schultz would excel at the half wall though? When I think of Schultz on the PP I think of him up top as the PP QB. I don’t think he’s good enough of a passer to be lower along the wall. He’s good at getting his shots through but as a distributor off the half wall I don’t think it’s ideal. Although inserting Schultz there would make me want to turn Geno into option 1. Which is something I’ve been wondering why they avoid his one timer for so long.

So... you post an article... for what? What was the point of your reply to me? There was nothing of significance in that article.
- j.boyd919

That article looked like it was written by a fan. Talking about issues with Phil because he refuses to stop drinking soda? Come on now lol

Oh, and Kessel on the 3rd line means moving Hornqvist back into the top 6.

Kessel won't play with Crosby because that line takes tough matchups and needs guys who play defense.

Kessel is great on the PP, but where does he really fit?

Oh, and Kessel on the 3rd line means moving Hornqvist back into the top 6.

Kessel won't play with Crosby because that line takes tough matchups and needs guys who play defense.

Kessel is great on the PP, but where does he really fit?
- Tojo.

Yeah, where ever would you fit a guy who has one of the best wristshots in league, has excellent speed and is an elite passer?

I feel for the next team that as to struggle with a guy like that.

Oh, and Kessel on the 3rd line means moving Hornqvist back into the top 6.

Kessel won't play with Crosby because that line takes tough matchups and needs guys who play defense.

Kessel is great on the PP, but where does he really fit?
- Tojo.

I disagree. In the short amount of time they played together they owned 55% of the shot shares in the regular season and 68% of the shares in the playoffs and they generated solid solid scoring chances. I would love to see Sid and Phil together for an extended period of time.

Do you really think that Schultz would excel at the half wall though? When I think of Schultz on the PP I think of him up top as the PP QB. I don’t think he’s good enough of a passer to be lower along the wall. He’s good at getting his shots through but as a distributor off the half wall I don’t think it’s ideal. Although inserting Schultz there would make me want to turn Geno into option 1. Which is something I’ve been wondering why they avoid his one timer for so long.
- j.boyd919

I'd do Schultz up top and Letang on the half wall. Schultz is better at facilitating the PP and especially setting up Malkin for one-timers (which I agree becomes option 1).

Letang has always struggled with putting the puck in Malkin's wheelhouse and can be pressured into bad decisions up top, but he is superior at getting the puck into the zone with control which is what they miss when he's not on the top unit.

This way you use both their strengths. Not quite as good as having Kessel, but I believe a managable drop off.

If it were up to me this is who I'd ship out: JJ, Sullivan and Rutherford