You just say "No one actually thought that..." Then, "a few posters... thought Fletcher would do that."

I read all the posts that day, Fletcher getting the job was not positive. The main reason was the thoughts to undo Hexy plans or at least follow what they believed was Homers plans to dismantle the farm.
- leon neon

I think you need to read it again. What you state here is far different from trading all the picks and prospects. You just undermined your point and proved mine.

@nutter
Great post
Long but everything on point

I like Braun a bit more then you because he got all the really tough match ups on SJ in the important games, and was good at it. Giving up #41 was a big cost though

If Frost moves in and forces Hayes into the bottom six, they will be a really good team

I think they had to get a mid six C this year, in fact I would bet Hexy would have gotten one too if he was still here, probable not paying Hayes a max deal but through a trade. Forcing G into the C role and G taking a regular PK shift would have burned him up. Now they don’t have too. Still your arguments are well thought out, kudos
- Marc D

Right on. Once every couple years, I make a rational post. We are all fans, take it easy.

Is Pantloads your latest iteration of Coach Punchface?

Been wondering anyone know how Berube has been since you stated multiple times he wouldn't coach in the NHL again. Hopefully he found a job doing something.
- opeth_pa

Who looks dumber? Me for shredding Berube, or the Flyers firing him and replacing him with a college coach?

Right on. Once every couple years, I make a rational post

- flyer_nutter

I admit I didn't read all of it but I skimmed and I think I got the most important parts. I agree with for the most part. I'm just not sure that in a cap environment with the way salaries are these days that there is a viable middle ground.

Alright boys, this is going to be a bit of a lengthy one so - thanks for reading if you get through it! More level headed with some positive spins about moves we have seen lately, or I like to think!

I would like to first credit Fletcher for one big thing. I think as fans we all had players we simply believed needed to be off the club to improve it. Lehtera, Weise and MacDonald. We all believed for this club to take a step forward we not only needed to move on from Hakstol, but to not settle for Gordon. It was really refreshing, to have the beliefs validated. Going from a GM, who largely gave off the impression that the fans knew very little, and doubled down on supporting those we wanted out - it was a great feeling to have the opposite.

Now Let's start off going back in time to the end of another GM's tenure, the Paul Holmgren era. Paul started off his time with the Flyers with a glorious bang, immediately placing the team back on the map and bringing in some true quality talent while having the cap space to do it. With time, and namely the Pronger injury Holmgren began chasing that contention window when in reality - the door had already been shut. We saw a number of moves that placed too little value on draft picks, and very little concern toward the cap moving forward. Too much value was placed on trying to compete in the short team, and the risk toward long term cap/team ramifications was on the back burner. His failure, lead to a Ron Hextall hiring.

Hextall was a GM on other end of a spectrum. High value was immediately placed on draft picks and cap space. I think that was one of the best qualities about Hextall, and thats something that in a cap era - a smart GM needs to always value. Hextall's vision, as he alluded to a few times. Was not to build a team that only chased the first round, it was to build a team that set itself up as a statistically favourable contender for years, one that had true chance at going deep every year - not just making the dance and praying for the best. Hextall has many downfalls as a GM, he deserved to be fired, but his overall vision and value on draft picks/cap space was dead on. I do believe that when the kids took the next step, and thats really all the future success of this team depends on... He would have been aggressive. Its beyond unfortunate that a vast majority of the kids either stagnated, or took a step back last season, ironically in large part due to the coach he so proudly defended.

We then saw the ownership of the Flyers, and a team president who had largely seemingly been behind the scenes, come front and center. Talk about a "bias for action" was in the air, and how it was time for the team to move forward. We had paid our dues, and it was time to once again... put the Flyers on the map. The team decided to hire a GM with question marks after his Minnesota tenure, but a GM with a wealth of experience - and one the club president/owner believed would move this team forward. Unfortunately, I do believe that moving forward was simply the focus. Not about the RIGHT way, to move forward.

Fletcher, has done what he hopefully believes will correctly move the team forward. Now to go back to some positives. Matt Niskanen by all accounts is a true pro, who should help stabilize a group of young players. I do think there is some validity to Gudas alluding to the last season in Philly being truly difficult and players struggling to find themselves. I do think there is some value to qualities that men like Timonen or Streit bring to a blue line, especially a young blue line. Justin Braun, apparently will bring similar qualities. My concern with Braun, is that you severely undervalued #41 and a 3rd rounder, for one year of a 32 going on 33 year old dman. A one dimensional dman who while known for solid defensive play, is a black hole in the other end of the ice. I do not think Braun was the right player to target (and thats the key here), rushing out to get him on June 18th when his on ice play is far too limiting. He got really difficult assignments/usage in San Jose, and he does deserve credit for some of his defensive work. Will he improve the team while on the club? Probably, but the level of improvement, and one dimensional aspect of his play - again for one season. Is undervaluing the picks that went the other way.

The Niskanen deal poses risk, but does make some sense. He brings some things the Flyers management feels the group could use. I do think Gudas for whatever reason is underrated, he has quietly become a solid dman that I do think would excel in a certain playoff time atmosphere depending on the opponent. I can understand how the organization believes Niskanen is a better fit, and I do think a lot of what Fletcher has done is about "fit".

The team lastly went out to give what does appear to be FA market value to Kevin Hayes. There is no doubt another club would have given him that contract. There is no doubt that the team would take on big risk assuming Patrick simply steps up to consistently fill those 2C shoes. So in the name of moving forward, Hayes was signed. Hayes is a useful player in this league. He is good defensively, he is good at holding on to the puck, and has good EV numbers. He is not chum change as a player, and by all accounts is another man that is good in the room and brings some of those intangibles the club seems to value.

There are again, risks with Hayes. Is he a guy that is going to be able to not only compete but beat out the other 2C's he will likely go up against in the playoffs. Is he a player who's skill set is kind of redundant for this club? When talking about fit, I see the hole in the middle largely needing to be filled with the skillset of someone like Morgan Frost. Speedy, creative - and not simply a north/south player. On a team that largely lacks men who possess that creativity, I do not agree with Hayes. Signing him to that contract, makes him a core player, and the cap implications are long term. Every draft pick matters in this league, as does every overpay. Is a 45-55 point centerman, worth that kind of deal? I'd venture to say no. Does he improve the club and move them forward? Yes he does, but is the right way to move forward.

A question that arises if being hesitant with the Hayes deal is who do the Flyers then fill the 2C hole with, or 3C. I feel the correct solution is in house - and has been all along. Nolan Patrick. Its very true this a player that struggled to consistently make an impact offensively. A similar trait we once saw with Couturier. Patrick is also solid in his own zone. I believe the right move, when faced with overpaying for a FA who is not on that top tier of players - is to go with the kids you have in house until the right move presents itself. 3C was filled by Laughton last season, and its quite possible Morgan Frost would have been able to fill that role at some point next season. There is risk in going with Laughton/Frost and Patrick, but it all comes down to what your vision for the team is.

Is your vision a club that values cap space, and chooses to spend that cap space on the right players simply instead of those that move the club forward a fraction? Is your vision for a team that is a true threat to compete for a cup for an extended window, or one that is like many middle of the pack clubs hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. A core is so crucial in today's NHL. Who your core players are, and the contracts they carry. Whether those core players, are able to not only compete - but beat the best on the other side of the ice. Its those deals, that directly impact who you fill the rest of your roster with, or if you ever have to be faced with the decision of letting a younger player go due to cap space.

I feel spending that precious space on a man like Hayes, who I dont believe is good enough to consistently beat out the best of the other team, was the wrong move.

I feel that when faced with the question of how to move the team forward, if the right answer or player doesnt present itself. You stick with your kids. I believe in a cap era, the RIGHT move, is more important than simply moving forward.

Fletcher to me is a man with a bunch of money and assets. Moving his club forward, without thinking it through. The Flyers needed someone in the middle ground after Hextall, but it seems the pendulum swung too far to the other direction.

If you got through that, bravo!
- flyer_nutter

Solid analysis, nutter! I too believe the Hayes signing is not the right player/move at this time (ditto for Braun). That said, as a whole, the Flyers’ roster as it currently stands is better than the roster that closed out the 2018-19 season. If I’m a betting man, Fletcher isn’t done wheeling and dealing...my hope is that he can land a player or two that play with an edge (i.e. player[s] to fill the void left by Simmonds’ departure). There are simply no intimidators on the current roster.

One off season to this point does not tell the full story. All of the evidence that we have points to the Flyers going back to the same methods that they used under Holmgren. The possible negative effects of that are cumulative and will happen over a number of seasons.
- MJL

I agree that one off-season does not tell the full story. However, I don't buy that "all the evidence" points to the same old methods. It is a different time and place under the cap. First - maybe there is some mis-communication - what is your definition of the old methods. Mine is for the team to build "old style" is a team through UFA and Trades... The opposite being build the team from Drafting and Development. Hexy relied on this method. I believe the evidence is that Fletcher is somewhere in between. He has not sold the farm, nor has he shied away from the UFA and Trades.

Corey Perry, anyone? ANA bought him out.
- BroadSTmayhem

No Franking way

I agree that one off-season does not tell the full story. However, I don't buy that "all the evidence" points to the same old methods. It is a different time and place under the cap. First - maybe there is some mis-communication - what is your definition of the old methods. Mine is for the team to build "old style" is a team through UFA and Trades... The opposite being build the team from Drafting and Development. Hexy relied on this method. I believe the evidence is that Fletcher is somewhere in between. He has not sold the farm, nor has he shied away from the UFA and Trades.
- leon neon

The old method is doing what they feel they need to do to try and win every year and using future assets, including cap space to do that. The evidence is the firing and Hextall. The comments of management and the mandate given to Fletcher. Fletcher's actions this off season. It's not as if Holmgren didn't draft anyone while GM. If the Flyers have a good season, make the playoffs and maybe even win a round. What do you think the idea is going to be? Let's remain patient or lets go for it and continue to spend to get there?

Fire Fletcher and full rebuild.

Fletcher has been given a mandate to win right now, and if not Homer takes the reigns..
- Hextall271

Haha you are correct sir! I do like that Fletcher is atleast able to make moves. For all we know the trade market is unyeilding

These might have been moves Hextall would have passed on, and in retrospect he shouldn't. We don't know the moves Hexy didn't make. He might have left some viable options on the table for something like a 3rd round pick or given another $500k. Upper mgmt might look back in hindsight and say, damn.. he should have done that deal. Especially when our goaltending fell apart.

I wonder what Hexy thinks of all this. He probably cringed when he read that 2nd and 3rd rounder was traded.

I think you need to read it again. What you state here is far different from trading all the picks and prospects. You just undermined your point and proved mine.
- MJL

Ah, no I didn't.

I say we should be happy that Fletcher hasn't totally dismantled Hexy plan for developing a bunch of the younger guys. The same thing in reverse is to state that not to trading all the picks and prospects.

You're point was I don't know, because contradicted yourself. Did people state that they thought Fletcher would trade away the farm for old guys... Yes, yes they did.

Saint Ronald signs jvr and all good
Fletcher signs Hayes all bad

I admit I didn't read all of it but I skimmed and I think I got the most important parts. I agree with for the most part. I'm just not sure that in a cap environment with the way salaries are these days that there is a viable middle ground.
- MJL

FA for me is for either bargain bin hunting, or the big name players.

Going after this middle/above average tier. Its dangerous as hell. Hayes is an example.

So just a question for the "follow the plan and time isn't right" group.

How do you sell that to your customers?

Because not one person actually talked about this also being a business.

Just curious how you market it and keep your fans excited.
- J35Bacher

Well, I think the plan is to appease the STH and ownership by at least giving the impression of going for it now. Is that the best way? I don't know.

I look at CBJ, they went all in to go for it. Won a round and excited their fan base, but now will have some significant holes.

To me, creating a lengthy window to win which gives you the chance to win multiple cups is what energizes a fanbase and creates long term passionate fans.

Ah, no I didn't.

I say we should be happy that Fletcher hasn't totally dismantled Hexy plan for developing a bunch of the younger guys. The reverse of that is trading all the picks and prospects.

You're point was I don't know, because contradicted yourself. Did people state that they thought Fletcher would trade away the farm for old guys... Yes, yes they did.
- leon neon

Yes you do because your follow post showed that you clearly didn't understand what I posted. I'll make it simpler. People saying that Fletcher was going to trade all the picks and prospects doesn't exist. Nobody has said that. Posters only claimed that was said by others. It wasn't. You're wrong.

FA for me is for either bargain bin hunting, or the big name players.

Going after this middle/above average tier. Its dangerous as hell. Hayes is an example.
- flyer_nutter

I agree.

Well, I think the plan is to appease the STH and ownership by at least giving the impression of going for it now. Is that the best way? I don't know.

I look at CBJ, they went all in to go for it. Won a round and excited their fan base, but now will have some significant holes.

To me, creating a lengthy window to win which gives you the chance to win multiple cups is what energizes a fanbase and creates long term passionate fans.
- Hextall271

Yeah the arena was packed when the Sixers were doing that and the customer new exactly why.


Customers by tickets for results for the current year. Not 3 years down the road.

Yeah the arena was packed when the Sixers were doing that and the customer new exactly why.


Customers by tickets for results for the current year. Not 3 years down the road.
- J35Bacher

Right, but would you rather be a team like Tampa that makes smart moves, keeping the cap always in mind and keeping the window open for as long as possible. Along with keeping as many of your talented kids as possible...

Or this? The bar needs to bet set above first or second round exits.

I'm not freaking out because some of this points to a deeper communication between the GM, the business, and the coach than we've had in a long time.

They might have kicked the tires on Hayes but it had to be AV who stepped in and said "You want this guy, he's worth it. I've been with him in the locker room in good and bad situations." The fact that they listened to him begins that trust between the coach and the GM. Not a bad thing.

The moves make the business happy because moves mean new marketable faces and more income to pay everyone. They want to win too!

As for picks and prospects, Fletcher has moved a 2nd and 5th this year, and a third next year. So far none of our young Forwards or D have left the nest and every poster even the most negative have agreed we are a better team. That's frankly amazing.

We have lost Gudas, but with only 1 more year on a deal, it seems obvious he was not considered part of the core. And if you are honest with yourself you'd say the same (or most would).

Every player he has brought in has had a "good guy" or "solid" or "great in the locker room" theme. Not a bad thing on a young team - particularly since 2 of the three could be gone in a year or 2.

The negatives are around a concerning trend to throw high draft picks away, large salaries at players and retaining cap hit (possibly mismanaging the cap for the future), and whether or not he could have gotten more from each trade. I agree if we make this many moves at every trade deadline or every off season we are going to have an issue.
And it's good to keep that in sight. But let's not blow this out of proportion. They overpaid for a forward in RFA. EVERY team has done that and will continue to do that because that's how you keep your young up and coming players. They could have traded for someone better with a lower cap hit, but would you have given up Sanheim to do it?

It's his job to manage the cap and I think they will do it. We can argue about whether it's perfect but ultimately what I see is a team determined to improve and NOT at the cost of it's future. Not yet.

Long story short. I didn't want to watch the same team fall apart. I hope they are better, cuz I want to see G win, he very much deserves it.

They bought out MacDonald so they could add a 32 year old player to the lineup while adding dead cap space to the future. It's ridiculous to stated that some fans don't understand the plan. Not that complicated to see what's going on.
- MJL

It appears over the past several days, many posters can't understand why Fletcher would bring in Nisky/Braun, why sign Hayes, what about the cap spaces, etc...

There is a plan. If it's not so complicated why are there pages and pages of posters analysis and concern. Most of the concern is speculation. I would imagine if we have this debate in a year five or ten years, it wouldn't be as fun because it would be based of fact. Then we can look back and say Fletch's plan worked or didn't.

What changed that won't allow the team to compete for a decade? Because they traded for a couple defensemen and signed someone?

The last thing the Flyers need to do is have the mentality that they fill the roster with their prospects and tell them to go out and get better. That never works and terrible team management, last season was even more proof of that.

If you hate the current "MO" meaning paying too much for Hayes then you must really hate overpaying for JvR the previous year under Hextall.

What other options are there? Stick with the losing team of last year in the hope they magically get better?
- Glak18

I am not losing my mind over these moves as long as the plan is to move forward by primarily building through the draft (even if that means trading them for comparable value to fill a need). What I don't want to see is shipping out picks for vets or signing UFAs because a young promising star isn't developing fast enough, thereby putting us in cap hell while the player flourishes elsewhere (Bob comes to mind).

That's the old MO I want to avoid, and I worry that the mandate from above prioritizes making the playoff and winning a round or two more than sustainably competing for the cup. So far Fletch hasn't gone that far to his credit.

Yeah the arena was packed when the Sixers were doing that and the customer new exactly why.


Customers by tickets for results for the current year. Not 3 years down the road.
- J35Bacher

If the focus is always near term hope to get to the second round (as we saw in CBJ this year) then the org is off the mark. If you build consistent contenders, then it works out for everyone. Plenty of teams have been able to do this, so it's my belief we can do it as well.

Saint Ronald signs jvr and all good
Fletcher signs Hayes all bad
- daryl stanley

Right!

Maybe Fletcher worked with Howie Roseman and has that plan for 4,5,6 years down the road.

Hey guys the flyers never announced the signing lol

We should also try and keep in mind that some of Homer's moves and signings at the end of his GM tenure were purely made to try and win one more cup for Mr. Snider. I do not think the old MO is happening here. Otherwise they would have traded Sanheim for a comparable player in Hayes. I much rather them spend to the cap with keeping an eye on our RFA's and the future, while using their assets/picks to bring in vets.. which is exactly what they are doing.