Location: Be nice from now on, NJ Joined: 03.17.2006
Jun 19 @ 1:18 PM ET
I think what it is is that not all fans felt it was go time to content right now. While I always want them to succeed, to me success isn't winning a round or two of playoffs, it's sustainably competing for the cup for a decade. You do that with picks and development. Then when go time hits, you trade or sign aggressively with hopes of putting you over the top.
While ownership and some fans want to improve right now at all costs like we always have done before, I want them to build into a long term contender even if that means go time isn't until 2 years out. Our previous mo didn't get us to the cup, and I don't love that we're going back to that model. - Hextall271
Honestly though, at least the Flyers are giving us something to talk about. Instead of who could/would/should have been an AHL player if it weren't for their size/speed/head/money/toomanycats. I am totally pumped to see what Friday night brings. FA will be very quiet for us. I think once Saturday night hits, the flyers will be done until maybe TDL if everyone is healthy.
If the focus is always near term hope to get to the second round (as we saw in CBJ this year) then the org is off the mark. If you build consistent contenders, then it works out for everyone. Plenty of teams have been able to do this, so it's my belief we can do it as well. - Hextall271
And where have they stopped from trying to build a consistent contender?
Hayes is 27 not 37. He is also here to assist in helping Patrick develop with better matchups.
Braun and Niskanen are short term guys to assist in this cintinued development.
Location: Be nice from now on, NJ Joined: 03.17.2006
Jun 19 @ 1:23 PM ET
Alright boys, this is going to be a bit of a lengthy one so - thanks for reading if you get through it! More level headed with some positive spins about moves we have seen lately, or I like to think!
I would like to first credit Fletcher for one big thing. I think as fans we all had players we simply believed needed to be off the club to improve it. Lehtera, Weise and MacDonald. We all believed for this club to take a step forward we not only needed to move on from Hakstol, but to not settle for Gordon. It was really refreshing, to have the beliefs validated. Going from a GM, who largely gave off the impression that the fans knew very little, and doubled down on supporting those we wanted out - it was a great feeling to have the opposite.
Now Let's start off going back in time to the end of another GM's tenure, the Paul Holmgren era. Paul started off his time with the Flyers with a glorious bang, immediately placing the team back on the map and bringing in some true quality talent while having the cap space to do it. With time, and namely the Pronger injury Holmgren began chasing that contention window when in reality - the door had already been shut. We saw a number of moves that placed too little value on draft picks, and very little concern toward the cap moving forward. Too much value was placed on trying to compete in the short team, and the risk toward long term cap/team ramifications was on the back burner. His failure, lead to a Ron Hextall hiring.
Hextall was a GM on other end of a spectrum. High value was immediately placed on draft picks and cap space. I think that was one of the best qualities about Hextall, and thats something that in a cap era - a smart GM needs to always value. Hextall's vision, as he alluded to a few times. Was not to build a team that only chased the first round, it was to build a team that set itself up as a statistically favourable contender for years, one that had true chance at going deep every year - not just making the dance and praying for the best. Hextall has many downfalls as a GM, he deserved to be fired, but his overall vision and value on draft picks/cap space was dead on. I do believe that when the kids took the next step, and thats really all the future success of this team depends on... He would have been aggressive. Its beyond unfortunate that a vast majority of the kids either stagnated, or took a step back last season, ironically in large part due to the coach he so proudly defended.
We then saw the ownership of the Flyers, and a team president who had largely seemingly been behind the scenes, come front and center. Talk about a "bias for action" was in the air, and how it was time for the team to move forward. We had paid our dues, and it was time to once again... put the Flyers on the map. The team decided to hire a GM with question marks after his Minnesota tenure, but a GM with a wealth of experience - and one the club president/owner believed would move this team forward. Unfortunately, I do believe that moving forward was simply the focus. Not about the RIGHT way, to move forward.
Fletcher, has done what he hopefully believes will correctly move the team forward. Now to go back to some positives. Matt Niskanen by all accounts is a true pro, who should help stabilize a group of young players. I do think there is some validity to Gudas alluding to the last season in Philly being truly difficult and players struggling to find themselves. I do think there is some value to qualities that men like Timonen or Streit bring to a blue line, especially a young blue line. Justin Braun, apparently will bring similar qualities. My concern with Braun, is that you severely undervalued #41 and a 3rd rounder, for one year of a 32 going on 33 year old dman. A one dimensional dman who while known for solid defensive play, is a black hole in the other end of the ice. I do not think Braun was the right player to target (and thats the key here), rushing out to get him on June 18th when his on ice play is far too limiting. He got really difficult assignments/usage in San Jose, and he does deserve credit for some of his defensive work. Will he improve the team while on the club? Probably, but the level of improvement, and one dimensional aspect of his play - again for one season. Is undervaluing the picks that went the other way.
The Niskanen deal poses risk, but does make some sense. He brings some things the Flyers management feels the group could use. I do think Gudas for whatever reason is underrated, he has quietly become a solid dman that I do think would excel in a certain playoff time atmosphere depending on the opponent. I can understand how the organization believes Niskanen is a better fit, and I do think a lot of what Fletcher has done is about "fit".
The team lastly went out to give what does appear to be FA market value to Kevin Hayes. There is no doubt another club would have given him that contract. There is no doubt that the team would take on big risk assuming Patrick simply steps up to consistently fill those 2C shoes. So in the name of moving forward, Hayes was signed. Hayes is a useful player in this league. He is good defensively, he is good at holding on to the puck, and has good EV numbers. He is not chum change as a player, and by all accounts is another man that is good in the room and brings some of those intangibles the club seems to value.
There are again, risks with Hayes. Is he a guy that is going to be able to not only compete but beat out the other 2C's he will likely go up against in the playoffs. Is he a player who's skill set is kind of redundant for this club? When talking about fit, I see the hole in the middle largely needing to be filled with the skillset of someone like Morgan Frost. Speedy, creative - and not simply a north/south player. On a team that largely lacks men who possess that creativity, I do not agree with Hayes. Signing him to that contract, makes him a core player, and the cap implications are long term. Every draft pick matters in this league, as does every overpay. Is a 45-55 point centerman, worth that kind of deal? I'd venture to say no. Does he improve the club and move them forward? Yes he does, but is the right way to move forward.
A question that arises if being hesitant with the Hayes deal is who do the Flyers then fill the 2C hole with, or 3C. I feel the correct solution is in house - and has been all along. Nolan Patrick. Its very true this a player that struggled to consistently make an impact offensively. A similar trait we once saw with Couturier. Patrick is also solid in his own zone. I believe the right move, when faced with overpaying for a FA who is not on that top tier of players - is to go with the kids you have in house until the right move presents itself. 3C was filled by Laughton last season, and its quite possible Morgan Frost would have been able to fill that role at some point next season. There is risk in going with Laughton/Frost and Patrick, but it all comes down to what your vision for the team is.
Is your vision a club that values cap space, and chooses to spend that cap space on the right players simply instead of those that move the club forward a fraction? Is your vision for a team that is a true threat to compete for a cup for an extended window, or one that is like many middle of the pack clubs hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. A core is so crucial in today's NHL. Who your core players are, and the contracts they carry. Whether those core players, are able to not only compete - but beat the best on the other side of the ice. Its those deals, that directly impact who you fill the rest of your roster with, or if you ever have to be faced with the decision of letting a younger player go due to cap space.
I feel spending that precious space on a man like Hayes, who I dont believe is good enough to consistently beat out the best of the other team, was the wrong move.
I feel that when faced with the question of how to move the team forward, if the right answer or player doesnt present itself. You stick with your kids. I believe in a cap era, the RIGHT move, is more important than simply moving forward.
Fletcher to me is a man with a bunch of money and assets. Moving his club forward, without thinking it through. The Flyers needed someone in the middle ground after Hextall, but it seems the pendulum swung too far to the other direction.
If you got through that, bravo! - flyer_nutter
My god, this post was like the opening scene in Star Wars .
It appears over the past several days, many posters can't understand why Fletcher would bring in Nisky/Braun, why sign Hayes, what about the cap spaces, etc...
There is a plan. If it's not so complicated why are there pages and pages of posters analysis and concern. Most of the concern is speculation. I would imagine if we have this debate in a year five or ten years, it wouldn't be as fun because it would be based of fact. Then we can look back and say Fletch's plan worked or didn't. - leon neon
It's not hard to understand why they did it. Everyone knows why they did it. Disagreeing with the moves is different from not understanding why they did it. What is the criteria that we'll be using for whether it worked or not?
Haha you are correct sir! I do like that Fletcher is atleast able to make moves. For all we know the trade market is unyeilding
These might have been moves Hextall would have passed on, and in retrospect he shouldn't. We don't know the moves Hexy didn't make. He might have left some viable options on the table for something like a 3rd round pick or given another $500k. Upper mgmt might look back in hindsight and say, damn.. he should have done that deal. Especially when our goaltending fell apart.
I wonder what Hexy thinks of all this. He probably cringed when he read that 2nd and 3rd rounder was traded. - bmoreflyer
Maybe he's losing his mind.. who knows. ahah What I truly think is that he wanted to replicate the LA model that was successful for him as the AGM. Get the stud goalie, centre, dman and supporting cast in place. Let picks and prospects fly out the door for Carter and Richie then go for it all. Think they even signed Gaborik as UFA for one of those runs. I think he would have gone for broke at the right time. Ownership just was not willing to wait any longer.
I'm def willing to give Fletch a chance and I don't think he's done this offseason with big moves.
And where have they stopped from trying to build a consistent contender?
Hayes is 27 not 37. He is also here to assist in helping Patrick develop with better matchups.
Braun and Niskanen are short term guys to assist in this cintinued development. - J35Bacher
As I mentioned, I am keeping an open mind on Fletch. So far he hasn't done anything too crazy. If he generally stays the course and focuses on building PRIMARILY through the draft, then its fine. I don't want to see us go back to the old unsustainable ways.
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot! Joined: 09.01.2012
Jun 19 @ 1:32 PM ET
Health is irrelevant. If Sidney Crosby only played 71 games because of injury would you pay him less? It isnt as if the guy is missing half a season every year. He produces at a 60 point rate which is good and what we need. JVR could have hit 30 goals if he was healthy, doesnt mean he cant be healthy this year and wont hit 30 this year. - xShoot4WarAmpsx
Kevin Hayes isn’t Sidney Crosby. JvR has hit 30 goals already in his career, making him a 30 goal scorer.
Saint Ronald signs jvr and all good
Fletcher signs Hayes all bad - daryl stanley
The Hayes deal would be more popular if it was 5 years like the JVR deal.
Also, the JVR deal didn't put the Flyers right up against the cap ceiling, which is where they will be once they get the RFAs and a backup goalie signed. Unless a decent sized contract is traded first.
It's not hard to understand why they did it. Everyone knows why they did it. Disagreeing with the moves is different from not understanding why they did it. What is the criteria that we'll be using for whether it worked or not? - MJL
I honestly wonder if CBJ GM kekalainen feels that the deadline moves (and non moves of Bob, Panarin) were worth it to win their first ever playoff series? It's an honest question. Maybe the market needed to have that taste of success to energize the fan base? I do believe the bar has to be set higher for this org.
Saint Ronald signs jvr and all good
Fletcher signs Hayes all bad - daryl stanley
This is what I've been thinking all day. IMO Hayes is the better signing. I get that JVR had the more impressive resume from an offensive production standpoint, and that carries a lot of weight. Especially when we're talking goal scoring. But Hayes is 3 years younger, a center, can PK, and is widely regarded as a stronger defensive player than JVR. Again, I recognize that goal scoring ability carries a lot of weight, and rightfully so. But I prefer the investment in Hayes over the one in JVR. Who do you think is more of a risk to be a burden in the last 3 years of their deal? I see it being JVR
Edit: After seeing some others' responses to Daryl's post, I must say I didn't take it as literally as you guys did when I first read it. You're right to point out that a lot of people were not happy with the JVR deal when it first went down.
My bottom line, I'm not a huge fan of either deal. But if I had to pick just one, at the time they were done, I would go with Hayes even if the term is 2 yrs longer.
Flyers are taking a lot of heat today. As far as Hayes, if you believe the Flyers needed a second line center then there were only 2 real options via ufa, Duchene and Hayes. Thornton and Pavelski are going back to SJ. Dzingel maybe is the third. Trade wise? Turris who scored 7 goals last year and makes 6 mil and Kadri are the two best options. I would be shocked if the Flyers didn’t inquire about Kadri before trading for Hayes...so he probably isn’t available . So basically you hope that you can get Duchene on July 1st, trade for Hayes and sign him, or fill the spot internally.
The Braun deal is the one that doesn’t make sense to me. Overpaying for a 1 year stats nightmare immediately after dumping amac our half decade stats nightmare doesn’t make sense and isn’t good value for those picks. Everyone is pissed because Trouba went to NYR for so little, I don’t know if we inquired but what if they wanted Frost and the 11 pick? Would you do it?
The GM is relying on the coaching change, a full year of Hart, growth from young players and the small changes he made to be the difference. We didn’t trade prospects. Our cap space is gone and a couple good picks, but thats it. I waited years under Hexy to see improvement that never came, I can give this guy a year or two.
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot! Joined: 09.01.2012
Jun 19 @ 1:39 PM ET
It took coots until season 7 to break 40 pts. I think Hayes still has more to give. Hes 27. He still has good years left in him - bulet13
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not. Do I have a lot of faith Hayes? No. Do I hope he helps the Flyers? Absolutely.
Another weakness we have is our second PP unit. Even though our top unit wasn’t very good last season, last season was one season in the 22 years I’ve been a Flyers fan, when the PP offered very little.
This offseason we’re adding Hayes. Last offseason we added JvR. The offseason before that we added Patrick. The off season before that, Konecny and Provorov.
Sorry about the long post but let me cut to the chance. Giroux, Voracek, Gostisbehere, JvR and Couturier says Hayes will be on the second unit. Do you think Hayes improves the second PP?
Location: Be nice from now on, NJ Joined: 03.17.2006
Jun 19 @ 1:40 PM ET
As I mentioned, I am keeping an open mind on Fletch. So far he hasn't done anything too crazy. If he generally stays the course and focuses on building PRIMARILY through the draft, then its fine. I don't want to see us go back to the old unsustainable ways. - Hextall271
This.
I'm getting used to the deals by allowing for the fact that the team is better on paper now than it was at the end of the season.
I look at all these RFA's we have this season and the next few years and worry about cap implications. I have NO DOUBT Fletcher and the brain trust have this in mind as well.
I really do think this team is closer than we think. Last season was a step back because of a multitude of things that happened all at once. Yes, we could have predicted the goalie debacle and many of us worried about that. Couple that with Provorov and Ghost taking EPIC steps backward, Patrick also not improving thus making the loss of Filppula actually hurt, Simmonds continued decline.....it became too much.
Heck, just having a decent goalie to carry the load and give some steadiness probably would have been enough to get us in to the playoffs last season.
We saw Lindblom improve, Sanheim improve, Laughton improve so it wasn't all bad.
So I hope Fletch stays patient enough to let most of these kids find their place.
I honestly wonder if CBJ GM kekalainen feels that the deadline moves (and non moves of Bob, Panarin) were worth it to win their first ever playoff series? It's an honest question. Maybe the market needed to have that taste of success to energize the fan base? I do believe the bar has to be set higher for this org. - Hextall271
Well that's hindsight. I think any GM worth his salt would go for it when they feel they have a team that can win it all. If he doesn't then you shouldn't have him as your GM. The smart GM's and teams know the difference and when your team isn't at hat point. The Flyers are making moves to win now. They shouldn't be.
