Shot attempts don't nearly as much luck as goals do.

And the difference from playing on a 31st place team to the 1st place team is massive for plus minus.

Polak was a plus 6 last year

Vlasic "the all star D" was minus 6

It is complete bull poop
- Santo_44

Polak is always around that number when he plays on a competitive team where he isn't hung out to dry like a few years ago. Dallas has finished right around where Colorado has finished, and Barrie is a big fat minus regardless.

Barrie career -59
Vlasic career +132

Yup. Matters.

Yup.

You play the whole year over again with the same rosters it is doubtful St.Louis wins.

They are a good team that won the games.
- Santo_44

They're a "Good Team", but far from the most talented. They've had more talented Blues teams in the past that never got past the 2nd round.

Polak is always around that number when he plays on a competitive team where he isn't hung out to dry like a few years ago. Dallas has finished right around where Colorado has finished, and Barrie is a big fat minus regardless.

Barrie career -59
Vlasic career +132

Yup. Matters.
- aminnes

VLassic has played every year on a great team, hence the great +/-. Barrie has played on mostly horrible teams.

+/- is a team stat.

They're a "Good Team", but far from the most talented. They've had more talented Blues teams in the past that never got past the 2nd round.
- RogerRoeper

Desire plays a big role both positively and negatively as well.

VLassic has played every year on a great team, hence the great +/-. Barrie has played on mostly horrible teams.

+/- is a team stat.
- RogerRoeper

Oh good. Thanks for correcting me. Barrie is every bit as good as Vlasic defensively. All the people that have watched Barrie, including and of the Avs fans and commentators should all quit talking and accept this fact.

Polak is a -2 and scores hardly a point and is used purely for defence.

Shot attempts don't nearly as much luck as goals do.

And the difference from playing on a 31st place team to the 1st place team is massive for plus minus.

Polak was a plus 6 last year

Vlasic "the all star D" was minus 6

It is complete bull poop
- Santo_44

It's not complete bullpoop. It's a metric that, like all metrics, needs to be put into context.

I don't like it to compare guys on different teams, but I do like to look at the +/- of guys on the same team, of course cross-referencing to TOI and knowing who they are playing against.

And I'd argue in beer league, it's a great stat. We've all played with the centre who gets 2 goals a night, but he is always -4 because he never comes back past the top of the faceoff circle, and then brags about his two goals for the rest of the night.

Polak is always around that number when he plays on a competitive team where he isn't hung out to dry like a few years ago. Dallas has finished right around where Colorado has finished, and Barrie is a big fat minus regardless.

Barrie career -59
Vlasic career +132

Yup. Matters.
- aminnes

(it doesn’t matter)

VLassic has played every year on a great team, hence the great +/-. Barrie has played on mostly horrible teams.

+/- is a team stat.
- RogerRoeper

With the exception of the 2016-17 season, Colorado teams haven't been horrible.

Luckily, I don't watch Avalanche games, so I don't actually have an opinion on Barrie yet.

True story.

Luckily, I don't watch Avalanche games, so I don't actually have an opinion on Barrie yet.

True story.
- Atomic Wedgie

Lies!

Polak is always around that number when he plays on a competitive team where he isn't hung out to dry like a few years ago. Dallas has finished right around where Colorado has finished, and Barrie is a big fat minus regardless.

Barrie career -59
Vlasic career +132

Yup. Matters.
- aminnes

Dude. Read what you are saying. So you are saying it matters how good of a team you are on?

Avs from 2011 in the West

11th
15th
2nd
11th
9th
14th
8th
8h

SJ

7th
6th
4th
12th
6th
5th
6th
2nd

quit it with your bull poop

all you do is talk in circles

There are 31 teams in the league and all of them are different in terms of how good they are. PLus minus stats are so skewed and you just admitted to it without even realizing it.

Desire plays a big role both positively and negatively as well.
- aminnes

bull poop

You can not measure "desire"

Quit it with you bull poop

Nope. Vlasic is the best stay at home d man in the league. You are using your own definition.
- aminnes

Nope, and you're the one that brought up the homer dman.

With the exception of the 2016-17 season, Colorado teams haven't been horrible.
- Atomic Wedgie

They finished higher than 8th in the West once in the past decade....

and have finished 11th or lower in almost half of the decade

Dude. Read what you are saying. So you are saying it matters how good of a team you are on?

Avs from 2011 in the West

11th
15th
2nd
11th
9th
14th
8th
8h

SJ

7th
6th
4th
12th
6th
5th
6th
2nd

quit it with your bull poop

all you do is talk in circles

There are 31 teams in the league and all of them are different in terms of how good they are. PLus minus stats are so skewed and you just admitted to it without even realizing it.
- Santo_44

It of course plays factor, but it doesn't all of the sudden make the stat null and void.

A guy who scores at Barrie's level to be a minus means he sucks defensively. He's on the ice for way more goals for than Polak. Polaks entire +- is based on how he plays defensively, he doesn't get the stat advantage Barrie does.

Orr was a plus 582. His teams were good. If he played on bad teams he wouldn't have been plus 582, but he sure as poop wouldn't have been a minus either.

bull poop

You can not measure "desire"

Quit it with you bull poop
- Santo_44

Nylander in playoffs - no desire. It's not that hard.

Umm obviously, no one said otherwise.

"Stay at home" is code for poopty dman who can't move the puck and gets stuck in his own zone. Usually terrible defensively but dimwits think he's good defensively.
- burn

hummm

Nope, and you're the one that brought up the homer dman.
- burn

"Stay at home" is code for poopty dman who can't move the puck and gets stuck in his own zone. Usually terrible defensively but dimwits think he's good defensively. - Burn

That is retarded and your own personal definition which I would deny entirely.

Umm obviously, no one said otherwise.

"Stay at home" is code for poopty dman who can't move the puck and gets stuck in his own zone. Usually terrible defensively but dimwits think he's good defensively.
- burn

This is so true - mind you in the days of clutching and grabbing, great defensive plays were somewhat related to what you could get away with, without drawing a penalty.

The Leafs will have one player on D that started in last years opening game.

I'd argue the D got a lot better with Muzzin...now it got even better.

Rielly/Barrie/Muzz is a fantastic top 3. Dermott should finally break into a 2nd pairing role by seasons end.

Ceci is a mystery.

Lil and Sandin could surprise.

Harpuer is a better 7th D than Marincin.
- Santo_44

So Holl can play some hockey this year even if its with the Marlies.

It of course plays factor, but it doesn't all of the sudden make the stat null and void.

A guy who scores at Barrie's level to be a minus means he sucks defensively. He's on the ice for way more goals for than Polak. Polaks entire +- is based on how he plays defensively, he doesn't get the stat advantage Barrie does.

Orr was a plus 582. His teams were good. If he played on bad teams he wouldn't have been plus 582, but he sure as poop wouldn't have been a minus either.
- aminnes

LOL

seriously read what you are typing You are riunning in circles here.

Do you understand what plus minus means?

Doughty is arguably the best D in the league an he was a -34 last season. Why? Because his team gets scored on a lot more than it scores.

Go check the AVS Team plus minus the last 10 seasons. I will gladly add it uo for you it wont be pretty.

You are a joke

They finished higher than 8th in the West once in the past decade....

and have finished 11th or lower in almost half of the decade
- Santo_44

4 times in the playoffs in 10 years.

Not great, but not horrible either.

Nope, and you're the one that brought up the homer dman.
- burn

Just curious Burn - you think that if Dubas can unload Ceci to say Edmonton, Gardiner on a discounted one year deal possible?

4 times in the playoffs in 10 years.

Not great, but not horrible either.
- Atomic Wedgie

I meant since Barrie started playing.

Anybody catch Dubas on TSN this evening? Ceci's going to arbitration, so it's not a guaranteed 4.5M like reported.

I do think he's going to play this year and will be interesting to see how he does playing with Rielly (Dubas talked about Muzzin and Barrie playing together at the Worlds) who's obviously an upgrade to everyone then Sens have outside of Chabot.